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Old 29-11-2015, 12:32   #16
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Deltaten,

You are on the right track regarding fall arrestment. While our primary focus and efforts are oriented to staying on the boat, falls while tethered must be accounted for.

For a detailed boating perspective from a very experienced mountain climber and cruiser- and the person who wrote the recent Practical Sailor article about jacklines [subscription required, but here is the public blog post leading to that article...] see the following: [and there is much more...]

The Case for Softer Tethers

Dynamic Tethers

Climbing Gear for Sailors--Jacklines and Harnesses for the Unemployed

Jacklines, Tethers, and Why Monohulls and Catamarans are Different

The Attainable Adventure Cruising online ebook about this subject- and ongoing discussion as mentioned by others in this thread- will also provide you with great insight; especially with regards to hard attachment points for tethers... [Morganscloud.com - membership required, and it appears some of us here find it very worthwhile as a supplement to this excellent forum...]

Lastly, for a sobering perspective on what it is like to be dragged in the water or attempt to rescue a tethered POB, read:

Is it safe to use a tether?

Here's hoping that none of us ever have such experiences first-hand...

Cheers!

-Bill
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Old 29-11-2015, 13:28   #17
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

I reckon jacklines on the side decks are the work of the devil.
What I have...
A 12mm line secured at about 5 foot on the mast (so it is easy to step under) which is lead along the centre line to a cleat by way of the capstan. Clove hitched to the baby stay on the way past to give a bit more rigidity.
Down aft the same lying on the centre line from the back end of the cockpit to the back of the boat.
Four attachment points in the cockpit (each corner)
Cockpit to mast is a bit of a moveable feast but only about 5 feet or so and plenty to attach to along the way, boom vang etc.
If working at the mast in weather I take a turn around the mast...holds me close.. lets me work with two hands.
Nada mas, works for me.
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Old 29-11-2015, 13:45   #18
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Having fallen off a racing boat in a 50knot squall while trying to get rid of the number 3 jib, from the foredeck, under the lifelines, it is not a "death sentence" (obviously hull shape has some impact here). Just dragged me tight to the hull and deposited me back on deck aft of the next stanchion.

I would think any kind of arrester is very prone to failure, so you may be left dragging at its fullest extent. If that is the case you could just go with the longest piece of dyneema needed from aa central point. One could argue that dyneema not necessary because larger diameter line would be much easier to hand over hand to get back to boat (3.5 inch webbing found on an arrester probably very difficult as well while under load). Can even stay clipped in while down below with this rig. Tangles are then your concern, and having a handy knife if you need it.

Robin Graham on Dove used this system and survived being washed overboard.

Using this system do you have a way back aboard?




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Old 29-11-2015, 15:45   #19
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
If I fall ovbd fwd, the tether can only get as far back as the first lower wire. So depending on the length of your tether and how much stretch the jackline has, you would only get to about the top shroud. Then if you fall in aft of the lowers, you would not be running your jackline that far aft, as to be drug behind the boat. I don't think you would ever have a tether attach point in the cockpit that would let you get very far over the stern behind the boat either.
I have no attachment points besides the cabin hand rails. The jackline I used one time ran from bow to stern with the tether hooked to it.

Now I use the tether attached to the cabin hand rails when my boat is at 30 degrees heel or so but not much other than that.

But I was considering a few weeks back at zero dark thirty a couple miles offshore (3-5 miles) in water temps of 60 degrees and super strong current..................what if I fell off now? (as I went forward to lower sail)

Air temp was 50, it was totally dark at 0530 in the am, no one knew where I was, and I was wearing all cotton. (and) no PFD

I know that I could make a PFD from the jeans I was wearing but I would need to swim soon due to the water temp.

So my problem would be (besides the obvious) should I blowup my jeans for a PFD or strip off all my clothes and go for it?

I can swim but I'm not a smooth swimmer/breather person like those that can do laps in pools for their regular weekly workouts etc.

But....................that may not be a bad thing to learn over the next few months since I just removed the sails from my boat for Winter this am. I did ride my bike to the boat though and did 20 miles total getting there and cruising around and back afterward which is a start if I was ever in the situation where I had to swim 3-5 miles in 60 degree water without a wetsuit..........
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Old 29-11-2015, 16:20   #20
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
I reckon jacklines on the side decks are the work of the devil.
What I have...
A 12mm line secured at about 5 foot on the mast (so it is easy to step under) which is lead along the centre line to a cleat by way of the capstan. Clove hitched to the baby stay on the way past to give a bit more rigidity.
Down aft the same lying on the centre line from the back end of the cockpit to the back of the boat.
Four attachment points in the cockpit (each corner)
Cockpit to mast is a bit of a moveable feast but only about 5 feet or so and plenty to attach to along the way, boom vang etc.
If working at the mast in weather I take a turn around the mast...holds me close.. lets me work with two hands.
Nada mas, works for me.
I'm with you, Ping... Even though I rig them going offshore on my boat, I consider jacklines on small boats - like the size of the OP's, or mine - to be essentially worthless... I actually cannot remember the last time I used mine...

For me, a series of fixed tethers - a pair led aft from the base of the mast, one on the foredeck, and a couple of shorties in the cockpit - are by far the best way to go... I go with some 10 mm climbing rope, led thru a rubber dockline snubber at the base of each...






When I get to the mast, a vital component is an adjustable Schaefer cleat on the pole track... Keep it adjusted to chest height, I can shorten up the tether to free the use of both hands, as you describe... This comes in especially handy when reefing on port tack, with all my reefing lines being led to the starboard/leeward side...





I'm not suddesting that this setup is best for all, but my KISS approach works very well, for me...

Well, so far, at any rate...

;-)
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Old 29-11-2015, 16:40   #21
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

[QUOTE=thomm225;1974290]
Air temp was 50, it was totally dark at 0530 in the am, no one knew where I was, and I was wearing all cotton. (and) no PFD
I know that I could make a PFD from the jeans I was wearing but I would need to swim soon due to the water temp.
So my problem would be (besides the obvious) should I blowup my jeans for a PFD or strip off all my clothes and go for it?

Go for it. How long do blown up jeans keep you afloat anyway? Blue jeans, great camo for when they come to find you.
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Old 29-11-2015, 17:06   #22
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by hodgmo View Post
Amen to staying on the boat. While short tethers are a good idea, a recent analysis challenges low-stretch jack lines (and hard attachment points) as offering advantage, and makes a good case that they may do more harm than good. See parts 1 and 2 at

https://www.morganscloud.com/2015/11...t-1-corrected/
Thanks for the reference but I could only read part 1 and part 2 required a membership. Too bad as I won't do that. From my own analysis and readings I don't see how low-stretch jack lines and hard attachment points could be anything but good things. I have done some recreational climbing and was a trained search and rescue volunteer for a county in Colorado so was more than a casual observer on this subject. In climbing you do need a stretch in your belay rope if you fall and call fall more than a few feet. But if you have a jack line as near the centerline and shorter tethers you should not be able to develop the momentum that would cause the problems you would have in falling off a cliff with a longer belay line or off the roof of a house or scaffolding. But may be I misunderstood and you were actually saying the same thing.
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Old 29-11-2015, 17:16   #23
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Quote:
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How long do blown up jeans keep you afloat anyway? Blue jeans, great camo for when they come to find you.
They can keep you afloat a very long time if it isn't rough.

You blow them up just a you would a raft. You just have to tie off the legs and keep the waist section below water facing down.

I guess you never took any lifeguard classes then......
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Old 29-11-2015, 18:58   #24
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
Thanks for the reference but I could only read part 1 and part 2 required a membership. Too bad as I won't do that. From my own analysis and readings I don't see how low-stretch jack lines and hard attachment points could be anything but good things...
FWIW, I've found the technical archive and ongoing discussions at the Attainable Adventure site well worth a small membership fee; it's like to subscribing to a magazine, one that can be interactive.

From a physics stand point, it's quite easy to imagine how low-stretch jacklines could do more harm than good, for example, what if the increased load on the system compared to a stretchier line (inevitable) causes a failure? It's a trade-off.

A detailed discussion is in progress at the site I referred to.
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Old 29-11-2015, 19:41   #25
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

This needs not be overthought to death. Go to a rockclimbing supply place and get a "Daisy Chain". Get two, while you're there. They are a series of loops in line, so you can adjust length with great ease. Get also a couple of wiregate carabiners (Not locking! how shocking!--whatever. Lockers have a more complicated mechanism that often corrodes into uselessness pretty fast. Two biners gives you redundancy that one does not, and flexibility to move your system about while remaining clipped in by at least one at all times. Now go around your decks and tie little loops of webbing or whatever will be easy to clip to anywhere you might want to clip in to, preferably as close to centerline as possible. Presto! No stupid jacklines, no falling overboard, no expensive, complicated arresting devices. I often clip my daisy chain around the loose-footed boom and can travel back and forth from mast to cockpit without unclipping. This is really a very simple thing that people blow way out of proportion.
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Old 30-11-2015, 08:23   #26
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

Upon further thought;with great input from here, I believe I will go with several fixed tethers. Cockpit line to reach mast line. Mast line enough to reach foredeck line. Really not much, if more,clipping in/out than jackline/s.

I wasn't thinking of the arrestor as much as the line retraction to keep the line off the deck/draping/tangling.

Thanks to all for the enlightenment, anecdotes and assistance
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Old 30-11-2015, 08:44   #27
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

I have studied actual man overboard experiences - the locations and crew actions.

What you really want is #1 short fixed tethers at work stations, especially those stations where you typically need to stand and work with both hands. These tethers should absolutely be short enough that they do not allow you to go over board. Work kneeling or sitting if you can. #2 a decent toe rail, decent hand grips, decent non-skid in the areas where you have to move between work station (no completely slick gel coat or hatch Lexi - put non-skid tape on), #3 develop awareness and seaman skill in move - always one hand for yourself, look where you place your feet and place them carefull, lower your center of gravity - crawl if you really need to. Be really aware if/when green water could come on deck or if significant crests could hit the boat.
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Old 30-11-2015, 08:52   #28
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by deltaten View Post
A recent post concerning jacklines spurred some thought and research. I need to add new/better harness and tag lines. My little 27 footer doesn't have a bunch of room/places to install jacklines conveniently/safely.

Having been in the construction trades most of my working life, I started looking at fall protection from that angle. There are several devices that are listed as "fall limiters" or "personal safety devices" that appear to possibly work better tthan typical solutions.

For those not familiar, these work like a recoiling dog leash..on a grand scale Honeywell/Miller is one of the largest manufacturers. They list specs as 400# and limit to 2 foot arrest. Lengths of safety lines vary to near 18 feet! These are usually tagged onto the "H" harness like a typical leash; but allow a spec'd distance travel.

I foresee a limiter fastened to central point (mast?) and meclipped on, able to move from 'pit to forestay without encumbtance or having to clip/unclip/reclip at several points.
Now to find an inflatable PFD that'll work with my (potential) rig?

Wondering if the device couldn' be clipped to the mast and use the "clip off" end to attach to harness?? This would lightenload and bulk on harness . Just might hafta call Miller and ask
There is clearly room for improvement in the traditional yacht jackline solutions.

Low mounted jacklines with very short tethers is a very poor solution. Ok for keeping you on board but kinematically and kinetically non optimum.

Were in the process of fitting a high mounted jack line as part of our hard dodger upgrade. The original low jacklines will remain as a secondary.

We're also upgrading furlers and sail plan to completely eliminate the need to putz around on the deck while underway.

The high mounted jackline will be stainless wire rope with a running carabiner. Much more practical and it allows for a short tether which is less constraining. Its also based on working at my height experience.

Note that the current low jackline with a fabric jackline would not comply with any working at height standard. This tells you something.

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Old 30-11-2015, 09:02   #29
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
They can keep you afloat a very long time if it isn't rough.
You blow them up just a you would a raft. You just have to tie off the legs and keep the waist section below water facing down.
I guess you never took any lifeguard classes then......


Yeah the US Navy course I took was of no value. I can see why now. We were not shown how to blow up our pants like a raft.
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Old 30-11-2015, 09:18   #30
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Re: Jacklines and fall protection devices?

You should take a look at the Attainable Adventure Cruising website Attainable Adventure Cruising. They are doing an analysis of exactly this problem and like all of their posts, it is well done and thought provoking. there is a lot of good feedback from other members as well.
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