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Old 14-09-2012, 16:15   #31
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Re: Jacklines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bay Man View Post
Do you guys really put on the harness and tether in every time you come up from below or just when the weather starts to get interesting?
There's a huge difference between small boats and bigger boats. On my current 46-foot cruiser, I use life jackets, et cetera, far less than when I sailed a ULDB 30 footer.

We always rig jacklines when going offshore, but not generally when bay sailing. I almost always tether at night, or when singlehanding.

During the day we tend not to wear lifejackets if the foredeck is dry. If it's wet, regardless of the reason it's wet, it's time to don them.

I usually wear a harness with a tether when standing watch alone offshore. However, the tether is not always clipped in when I'm in the cockpit, depending on conditions.

If there's green water coming over the bow, even intermittently, then all crew are required to clip in before leaving the companionway.

One thing to note here: most of the sailors I've known who went overboard did not fall overboat; they were washed overboard.
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Old 14-09-2012, 16:26   #32
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Re: Jacklines

Anatomy of a crew-overboard situation, as follow-up to my point about being washed overboard:

The first time I was ever involved in a serious crew-overboard situation was during an offshore race when I was trimming the main. After rounding a point we were carrying the spinnaker a bit too high, and a gust caused us to round down. During the round-down the topping lift parted, and the pole hit the lifeline so hard that the lifeline parted as well. Unfortunately, four crew were sitting on the rail and were leaning hard on that lifeline. All four went overboard.

The good news is that we got them all back even though it took a full minute to get the boat back under control. But I learned something very important that day. In all my years of racing it had never occurred to me to clip in while hiking out on the rail.

Something to think about.
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Old 14-09-2012, 16:47   #33
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Re: Jacklines

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Anatomy of a crew-overboard situation, as follow-up to my point about being washed overboard:

The first time I was ever involved in a serious crew-overboard situation was during an offshore race when I was trimming the main. After rounding a point we were carrying the spinnaker a bit too high, and a gust caused us to round down. During the round-down the topping lift parted, and the pole hit the lifeline so hard that the lifeline parted as well. Unfortunately, four crew were sitting on the rail and were leaning hard on that lifeline. All four went overboard.

The good news is that we got them all back even though it took a full minute to get the boat back under control. But I learned something very important that day. In all my years of racing it had never occurred to me to clip in while hiking out on the rail.

Something to think about.

I have a 150' dragline that I deploy off the stern when offshore/away from other boats. It has three yellow floats with reflective tape on it so other boats can see it. I tested it on my little 25' Irwin. I clipped it to a pad eye on the underside of the tiller, and then yanked hard and held on.

The boat immediately hove itself to and came to a complete stop.

On my current boat it's attached to the wheel. It doesn't take much of a turn to put this boat in a circle, and the same test didn't stop this boat but really slowed it down.

The dragline floats and has sewn-in figure 8 loops for better grip. I figure if I'm dumb enough to go overboard I'm dumb enough to do it without gloves on.
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Old 14-09-2012, 16:50   #34
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Re: Jacklines

Interesting note about workstations.

On Boracay I could not see how jacklines would be better than "pad eyes" so I used large "U" bolts along the line of where I thought a jackline would go. Easy to do on a steel boat.

With a 2m tether it should not be possible to go over the side anywhere except at the bow.

With 2 of us it became standard practice to clip on as we came to the companionway steps and to leave the tether at the top of the steps. I can see how making clipping on before entering the cockpit would be essential.

I haven't tried going forward but I'll be aiming to make the furling such that it should almost never be necessary.

We use the Burke combined harness/inflatable PFD and they are quite practical.
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Old 14-09-2012, 18:08   #35
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Re: Jacklines

I never wear a lifejacket, but the rule on Nekeyah is to be tethered at all times at sea, even in the calmest weather. Our harnesses have two tethers, one about 1 metre and the other about 2 meters.
The trouble with nto being in a harness is that if something fouls up and you have to go fwd in a hurry, the natural tendency is to just do it and not put on the harness.
I really like the idea stated earlier that there should be some tethers permanently attached at common work points around the boat, especially as our jacklines run down the side decks. Extra centrally located tethers would gove you something to brace against if necessary and would also lessen the chance of going over the rail.
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Old 14-09-2012, 18:13   #36
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Re: Jacklines

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Originally Posted by boden36 View Post
I really like the idea stated earlier that there should be some tethers permanently attached at common work points around the boat, especially as our jacklines run down the side decks. Extra centrally located tethers would gove you something to brace against if necessary and would also lessen the chance of going over the rail.
Regards,
Richard.

That is sort of our approach. We leave the tethers on the jacklines(one starboard, one port), hanging into the cockpit and wear only the harness while in the cockpit or cabin. Very handy.
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Old 15-09-2012, 06:44   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater

That is sort of our approach. We leave the tethers on the jacklines(one starboard, one port), hanging into the cockpit and wear only the harness while in the cockpit or cabin. Very handy.
I am curious about the type of clip that is on the tether and attached to the harness. All the fast release clips I have seen as pains in the neck to clip, but come off easy. The easy to connect clips, do not release easily under load (man overboard) situations.

Thanks

Bill
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Old 15-09-2012, 06:53   #38
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Re: Jacklines

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
I am curious about the type of clip that is on the tether and attached to the harness. All the fast release clips I have seen as pains in the neck to clip, but come off easy. The easy to connect clips, do not release easily under load (man overboard) situations.

Thanks

Bill
The 'right' kind are usually called trigger shackles, and originally designed for spinnaker sheets and guys and peeling strops, originally pioneered by sparcraft but now made by tylaska and wichard.

These have all the traits you want - easy to operate under load but also absolutely secure. They are, of course, a bit expensive.
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Old 15-09-2012, 08:32   #39
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Re: Jacklines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
I am curious about the type of clip that is on the tether and attached to the harness. All the fast release clips I have seen as pains in the neck to clip, but come off easy. The easy to connect clips, do not release easily under load (man overboard) situations.

Thanks

Bill
Snap shackles of various styles are pretty common so that they can be released quickly if necessary.
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Old 15-09-2012, 08:57   #40
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Re: Jacklines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
I am curious about the type of clip that is on the tether and attached to the harness. All the fast release clips I have seen as pains in the neck to clip, but come off easy. The easy to connect clips, do not release easily under load (man overboard) situations.

Thanks

Bill
This could start a whole 'nuther thread. You have asked a difficult "no free lunch" question; if it can open easily under load, it can open easily under load when you least want it to.

Spin shackles release, but you wouldn't use one on the jackline end. There are simply too many things they can slide past that can grab the lanyard. A locking type makes sense, yet something that can be quickly transferred from point to point. I like the Kong Tango, used on a number of good commercial tethers. But I like a good screw-lock on the jackline end too. More compact and slides well. I like aluminum too; requires more attention (grease a few times each season), but they are lighter and slide better because of that. They last well if maintained and are cheap to replace.

As for the harness end, that's more individual. The "rules" say it must be releasable, but the rules assume the boat is fully crewed and someone might come get you.

1. As a rock climber and as a sailor that has seen spin shackles (clipped incorrectly in the dark or a rush) open without warning, I consider them inherently unreliable, not because they aren't strong, but because they are prone to error. They also require 2 hands to be certain. The Tango is single hand and more fool proof IMHO.

2. Ask a rigger to go up the mast with a spin shackle or a rock climber to use one on his harness. They will assume you are stupid, correctly.

3. As a singlehander I find it hard to think of a circumstance when I would be both wearing a harness (instead of a PFD) an better off released. In other words, released I'm still a deader as I am off-shore or in icy water.

4. Not all spin shackles are releasable under load. This has been proven. Additionally, with some inflatable PFDs the lanyards are not accessible, also proven. Don't assume your system is releasable unless you've tested it in the water with the gear and PFD you will wear. The manufacturers have not all done these tests. Perhaps a few have.

So I use a Kong Tango at the harness end. Under most circumstances it is releasable, though it aint' easy if towed (I tested that at 6 knots).

Beth's advise is correct for most folks, just not the way I use tethers on my boat. I prefer to us very short tethers when near the rail (2 legs).

Sail Delmarva: The Case for Softer Tethers
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Old 15-09-2012, 09:15   #41
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Re: Jacklines

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Spin shackles release, but you wouldn't use one on the jackline end.

The question (Snore's) was specifically about the harness end

1. spin shackles . . . ./ . . They also require 2 hands to be certain.

I guess I am not sure you have ever seen or used a trigger shackle if you think they 'require two hands'. They absolutely do not. They are one hand to close and one hand to release.

Click image for larger version

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3. As a singlehander I find it hard to think of a circumstance when I would be both wearing a harness (instead of a PFD) an better off released. In other words, released I'm still a deader as I am off-shore or in icy water.

Trapped under the boat, or in the rigging is the classic case where you need a release.

4. Not all spin shackles are releasable under load. This has been proven.

Please show me 'proof' that any of the two most popular trigger shackles (tylaska or wichard) cannot be released under load. They have been used for years in both the Americas cup and Volvo races and are utterly reliable. The T12 (pictured above), for example, is designed to handle and release a 12ton load. It sure as **** is going to be able to release a couple hundred lb tethered body load.

Additionally, with some inflatable PFDs the lanyards are not accessible, also proven.

That would also be true with the kong on those same pfds.

So I use a Kong Tango at the harness end. Under most circumstances it is releasable, though it aint' easy if towed (I tested that at 6 knots).

The trigger shackles are inherently easier to release under load than the kong. To get free of the kong you have to pull yourself forward to slip out of the 'hook'. You do not need to do that with a trigger shackle, just pop the trigger and you are free.

The knog is acceptable for the jackline end, I just don't happen to like it because it mixes aluminum and stainless which I like to avoid in the marine environment, and the aluminum bouncing along the deck (along the jackline) and into cleats and blocks will get dinged up

.....
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Old 15-09-2012, 12:32   #42
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Re: Jacklines

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2. Ask a rigger to go up the mast with a spin shackle or a rock climber to use one on his harness. They will assume you are stupid, correctly.
Agreed, one would be stupid to go up the mast with a quick-release shackle. But that's not what we're talking about. The quick-release is for the cases when you are being towed and can't breathe (people have died this way), when you are trapped under an inverted hull (people have died this way), and when you are tethered to a sinking boat (people have died this way).

There's no guarantee that these people would have been saved had they been wearing a quick-release at their tether/harness connection, but the odds are likely better.

As for the quick-release shackles accidentally opening, some designs are more prone to this than others. My crew and I have about 107,000 crew-miles of tether-wearing experience (I just added it up), since we *always* wear tethers when at sea. The QD shackle with the red plastic balls on the trigger line do occasionally snag on a shroud or something. This has happened perhaps three times in all. With the plain trigger line (a short fabric tag) we've had no accidental releases. I consider this a reasonable failure rate, considering the benefits of being able to release under load.

Of course the issues are different for a solo sailor.
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Old 15-09-2012, 14:09   #43
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Did not mean to start a debate.


I use the WM ISAF double tether on a mustang PFD with harness. The reason I raised the question is that I keep the tether on my PFD. And use the kongs to clip on. The smaller snap is a PITA to clip. When I put the vest on, I clip the small snap across both D-rings and connect the crotch strap. It stays on as long as I deem it needed.

All that said, if (as one poster stated) one removes the tether from the harness or PFD and leaves it on the jackline, whatever you use to reconnect has to be easy to clip on and easy to unclip under load.

Bill
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Old 15-09-2012, 16:03   #44
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Re: Jacklines

Talking about quick release hooks I've used these.



Only problems have been that the operation is somewhat counter intuitive and the locking bar can get pushed to one side and not engage.

The tether does tend to get wound up over time, but that's mainly a matter of care.

Any thoughts on their use?
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Old 15-09-2012, 18:27   #45
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Re: Jacklines

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I use the WM ISAF double tether on a mustang PFD with harness.
I am not a big fan of the snap shackle used on the WM tethers. The trigger shackles are better in almost all regards - stronger, easier to release under load, less likely to release accidently - however the shap shackles WM uses are $50 (retail) while the trigger shackles are more like $150 (retail) and WM did not feel the extra $100 was justified.

On the other end, personally I prefer the wichard safety hooks - all stainless, intuitive to use (just squeeze, like the Kong, better than the type shown in the post above and used by the gibb hook which used to be the marine tether standard).
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