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Old 07-05-2015, 13:51   #76
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Barbossa View Post
Why take a risk? It could literally save your life and the lives of your passengers. Always worth storing on board just in case!

Do you wear a parachute whenever you ride in an airplane? It could literally save your life. Always worth wearing just in case!

Liferafts like any safety item on a car or boat or motorcycle or bike are subject to risk and cost benefit analysis.


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Old 07-05-2015, 15:19   #77
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Do you wear a parachute whenever you ride in an airplane? It could literally save your life. Always worth wearing just in case!

Liferafts like any safety item on a car or boat or motorcycle or bike are subject to risk and cost benefit analysis.


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Cost benefit analysis? Reminds me of Jack Benny:

OK; let's do the cost benefit analysis. What's my life worth? To me, a great deal. What's the value of the lives of my children, loved ones, friends, or passengers? Everything.

Fair winds,

Leo
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Old 07-05-2015, 15:31   #78
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Do you wear a parachute whenever you ride in an airplane? It could literally save your life. Always worth wearing just in case!

Liferafts like any safety item on a car or boat or motorcycle or bike are subject to risk and cost benefit analysis.


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I'm sorry but that's a really silly and unhelpful analogy. Wearing a parachute in nearly 'any' plane won't save your life.

In our part of the world to stop people doing 'risk and cost analysis' the government dictates it for any vessel in survey and dictates requirements for other vessels depending on the extent of sailing.
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Old 07-05-2015, 15:37   #79
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Leo Ticheli View Post
OK; let's do the cost benefit analysis. What's my life worth? To me, a great deal. What's the value of the lives of my children, loved ones, friends, or passengers? Everything.

Fair winds,

Leo
Well if that is the case then everyone aboard your boat would be required to wear a type 1 PFD at all times when aboard. Falling overboard and dying is a significantly higher risk than the boat sinking, even though you sail a Jeanneau instead of a Westsail. Do you require 100% PFD use?


Probably they should also be wearing kayaking helmets anytime the wind gets above 10kt, head injuries are also another comparatively high risk possibility.
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Old 07-05-2015, 15:43   #80
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Well if that is the case then everyone aboard your boat would be required to wear a type 1 PFD at all times when aboard. Falling overboard and dying is a significantly higher risk than the boat sinking, even though you sail a Jeanneau instead of a Westsail. Do you require 100% PFD use?

Probably they should also be wearing kayaking helmets anytime the wind gets above 10kt, head injuries are also another comparatively high risk possibility.
Your really clutching at straws. Not helpful to the discussion at all.
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Old 07-05-2015, 15:44   #81
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I'm sorry but that's a really silly and unhelpful analogy. Wearing a parachute in nearly 'any' plane won't save your life.

In our part of the world to stop people doing 'risk and cost analysis' the government dictates it for any vessel in survey and dictates requirements for other vessels depending on the extent of sailing.
Claiming the analogy doesn't work doesn't make it so. Why wouldn't it work in nearly any plane?

But let's move along to the Lifejacket issue. Falling overboard and drowning is a bigger risk statistically than the boat sinking. Lifejackets aren't effective if you aren't wearing them so do you mandate wearing them at all times aboard your boat? Does the Australian gov't?
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Old 07-05-2015, 15:52   #82
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Claiming the analogy doesn't work doesn't make it so. Why wouldn't it work in nearly any plane?

But let's move along to the Lifejacket issue. Falling overboard and drowning is a bigger risk statistically than the boat sinking. Lifejackets aren't effective if you aren't wearing them so do you mandate wearing them at all times aboard your boat? Does the Australian gov't?
Because you can't 'get out' of a plane (most planes) to use it. That's why. And there is also a degree of responsibility to get the plane away from danger areas on the ground. In nearly all 'ALL' plane emergencies it's far safer to stay with the plane. And yes, I'm a pilot.

No one mandates wearing life jackets 'all the time' on boats over six meters. And no one on this thread have been advocating wearing them 100% of the time on larger sail boats. Why introduce something that no one is advocating?
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Old 07-05-2015, 16:01   #83
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Your really clutching at straws. Not helpful to the discussion at all.
No it is helpful. Deciding when certain safety measures become appropriate is the root of this discussion.

We may disagree on where to draw the line but every person has their own line somewhere for every safety measure. You wouldn't carry a liferaft in a 20' daysailor to sail across the bay but you would take it on a passage across an ocean. Somewhere in between is the line. Asking about how much is your life worth is not a rational answer, it's fear put to words and it does nothing to enlighten the OP about the reasons for where you draw your line nor even where the line is drawn.
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Old 07-05-2015, 16:02   #84
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

I almost always wear a life jacket when I'm on deck when sailing. Ex Coast Guard Professional Mariner. I got used to the rule being enforced at work years ago, and just feel more comfortable with one on. Like wearing a seatbelt in a car.

Ido not have a life raft on board at current but do have a quality inflatable boat I keep inverted on my foredeck. Im keeping my eyes open for a used raft.

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Old 07-05-2015, 16:07   #85
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

Damn! Now I've got to buy those kayak helmets!

The PFDs don't come out as soon as we leave the dock, but I do require them sooner than most. Perhaps it's because I've not had the decades of experience to be a victim of familiarly breeding contempt. Your point is valid about MOB being a big killer; I guess that's why the Coast Guard recommends wearing a PFD at all times.

We just had several sailors lose their lives in Mobile Bay; I don't know if life rafts saved anyone or if anyone was lost for need of one, but not wearing a PFD surely killed some of them.

Unfortunately, a child was lost because she and her father couldn't make it into the life raft. We don't know the condition of the father and how the hypothermia affected him, but I understand the other crew who did make it into the raft were OK.


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Old 07-05-2015, 16:21   #86
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Because you can't 'get out' of a plane (most planes) to use it. That's why. And there is also a degree of responsibility to get the plane away from danger areas on the ground. In nearly all 'ALL' plane emergencies it's far safer to stay with the plane. And yes, I'm a pilot.
The vast majority of planes in the US are small private planes that fly slow enough to bail out of. Aim the aircraft someplace unoccupied then bail out. Or at least let your passengers bail out. United 232 is an example of a large aircraft that where parachutes could have saved lives. Even if 20% of the folks had died going out the door or on landing, fewer people would have died. Such a event is low probability but extremely high cost so it was a moderate risk. Even so parachute carriage is not required, the FAA did the cost-benefit analysis and said they weren't required.

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No one mandates wearing life jackets 'all the time' on boats over six meters. And no one on this thread have been advocating wearing them 100% of the time on larger sail boats. Why introduce something that no one is advocating?
I brought it up as an analogy. Falling overboard and drowning is more likely than the boat sinking but PFD usage is not mandatory at all times. So why are folk suggesting liferaft carriage be mandatory for all voyages regardless length and distance from shore?
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Old 07-05-2015, 17:44   #87
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

Exsguees me,

This thread seems to be wandering all over the place. I am primarily a coastal cruiser. I have a life raft an EPIRB and a DSC VHF. Overkill, perhaps, but I am also a pilot and two things stick in my mind.

There is nothing more useless than sky above you or runway behind you.

Liferafts, EPIRBS, harness's, PFD's all qualify with the above. Will I ever need them, odds say no. They qualify as sky above, etc.

You pays your money and takes your choice. In short, it's a personal choice, period. !!!

Happy sailing,
Rich


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Old 07-05-2015, 20:31   #88
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
The vast majority of planes in the US are small private planes that fly slow enough to bail out of. Aim the aircraft someplace unoccupied then bail out. Or at least let your passengers bail out. United 232 is an example of a large aircraft that where parachutes could have saved lives. Even if 20% of the folks had died going out the door or on landing, fewer people would have died. Such a event is low probability but extremely high cost so it was a moderate risk. Even so parachute carriage is not required, the FAA did the cost-benefit analysis and said they weren't required.



I brought it up as an analogy. Falling overboard and drowning is more likely than the boat sinking but PFD usage is not mandatory at all times. So why are folk suggesting liferaft carriage be mandatory for all voyages regardless length and distance from shore?
Let's get back on track and forget about the parachute 'analogy'.

I've 'not' read that anyone has suggested 'life rafts' be mandatory 'for all voyages regardless of length and distance from shore'

If someone has suggested that then I'm with you.
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Old 07-05-2015, 20:57   #89
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Let's get back on track and forget about the parachute 'analogy'.

I've 'not' read that anyone has suggested 'life rafts' be mandatory 'for all voyages regardless of length and distance from shore'

If someone has suggested that then I'm with you.
Title says coastal cruising. OP said within 5km of coast. Half the forum implies he has a deathwish and doesn't value the lives of this crew if he doesn't have a life raft.
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Old 07-05-2015, 21:14   #90
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Re: Importance of Life-raft when coastal cruising?

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Title says coastal cruising. OP said within 5km of coast. Half the forum implies he has a deathwish and doesn't value the lives of this crew if he doesn't have a life raft.
Ok, so let's forget about the analogy of 'mandatory life rafts' again and we are down to what you believe people are implieing.

I don't see anything like that. No 'death wish' and no questions of the value of lives.

To me it just gets down to two things. What you can afford and what's practical. It's not practical to have a large fibreglass box on your 18 footer 'in my opinion'. Where you sail is also important. Where the OP sails is as cold and colder at times than where I am. 5 minutes and your imcapacitated, 20 minutes and your dead.
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