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Old 30-05-2012, 07:55   #1
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If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

you could make the same mistake. In several of the gun threads and piracy threads, this is exactly the point I have made. Just sayin.

BBC News - Italian marines in Kerala jail bailed by India court
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Old 30-05-2012, 08:46   #2
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

You could also do nothing and end up a victim of pirates. Sad that unarmed fisherman died but we certainly do not have the details. There is no perfect answer for self defense. If your answer is no defense then so be it. Always I would rather have a gun than not need it then need a gun and not have it.
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Old 30-05-2012, 09:10   #3
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

In my opinion, the Italian sailors didn't make a mistake - the fishermen did. If the article is accurate and they A) were acting aggressively, and B) didn't respond to warning shots, then they should not have been surprised at what happened. I assume any military force would make the same assumption as well if they were protecting a civilian merchant ship.

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Old 30-05-2012, 09:15   #4
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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Originally Posted by jacob30 View Post
You could also do nothing and end up a victim of pirates. Sad that unarmed fisherman died but we certainly do not have the details. There is no perfect answer for self defense. If your answer is no defense then so be it. Always I would rather have a gun than not need it then need a gun and not have it.
Well said.

I assume word will spread to other fisherman that one needs to maintain a respectable distance from other people's boats/ships.
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Old 30-05-2012, 09:26   #5
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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Originally Posted by virginia boy View Post
Well said.

I assume word will spread to other fisherman that one needs to maintain a respectable distance from other people's boats/ships.
--unless the ships travel thru fishing grounds.
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Old 30-05-2012, 09:37   #6
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

I've learned to avoid drawing conclusions from articles before trials since all the facts may not be clear or available to the media. Questions this article begged...

How did the media know the "fishermen" were unarmed? How hard is it to toss some guns overboard while you're being shot at?

Why didn't the fishermen turn the hell around when warning shots were being fired at them?

Why did the fisherman approach a vessel like that in the first place?

Why are the governments bickering back and forth over where the trial is going to be? Why is the country jurisdiction government contradicting the state government in India about where the trial will be?

So many variables here it is pretty juvenile to take the media account and start drawing conclusions. Things just don't add up yet.

More than just one possibility here as well:
1) Marines killed fisherman for some reason other than mistaking them as pirates.
(murder)
2) Marines killed pirates that the media mistook for simple fisherman.
(justice)
3) Marines actually thought fisherman were pirates and killed them.
(tragic mistake)
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Old 30-05-2012, 09:45   #7
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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Originally Posted by s/vPainkiller View Post
In my opinion, the Italian sailors didn't make a mistake - the fishermen did. If the article is accurate and they A) were acting aggressively, and B) didn't respond to warning shots, then they should not have been surprised at what happened. I assume any military force would make the same assumption as well if they were protecting a civilian merchant ship.

Scott


This is not the first thread on this forum about this incident. Why would two unarmed fishermen "act aggresively" towards a ship so much bigger that theirs? And how would they even do it, what could they possibly do that would be a threat? These fishermen were blatantly murdered, and I hope the Italians get the book thrown at them and are locked up in an Indian prison. Every civilized nation in the world shares one simple ROE: don't shoot until shot at. If you are too much of a coward to follow that one simple rule you should not sign up to be a soldier or policeman, taking risks is what you are being payed for. In this case these fishermen were freaking out because the vessel in question drove right through their clearly marked fishing nets, their only form of livelyhood and not easily replaceable for them. They "buzzed" the ship in question while madly waving their arms and jumping up and down because they did not have a radio, being poor third world fishermen. These idiotic mercenaries took this as a threat and shot them. I have to doubt seriously that warning shots were fired and ignored. I suppose it's possible that they just didn't hear due to engine noise. Just more stupid Rambo wanna be's looking for an excuse to shoot someone. I really hope they end up in an Indian prison, in general population, where they will get theirs and then some...
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Old 30-05-2012, 09:51   #8
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

When I read people suggesting that it is better to shoot an innocent person then be a victim of pirates or that a fisherman is somehow responsible to be sure that a foreign tanker in their fishing grounds doesn't mistake them for a hostile, I can't help but think that some people should just stay home.
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Old 30-05-2012, 09:59   #9
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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When I read people suggesting that it is better to shoot an innocent person then be a victim of pirates or that a fisherman is somehow responsible to be sure that a foreign tanker in their fishing grounds doesn't mistake them for a hostile, I can't help but think that some people should just stay home.

Couldn't agree more. Or to suggest that "a respectable distance" needs to be maintained or you may risk being shot. What a double standard! I'm sure if these people approached another cruising boat or some local fishermen wanting to trade for fish and got shot because you came too close (ie close enough to hail), they would immediately accuse them of being pirates! Wonder what the fishermen would think of that statement? Funny how those who are most pissed off about "piracy" are the ones who are advocating doing something even worse, and for no particular reason, that is firing on any boat they feel threatened by which approaches too close. It's not OK for Somali's to shoot at you for no reason, but somehow it's OK when the Italians do it to some Indians, because they are poor and have darker skin than you? Extremely lame outlook. What happens when this occurs a few more times and then the fishermen start shooting at any boat which approaches too close because they feel threatened? Will that be OK too, or is it just us rich white westerners who are allowed to kill people because we are scared?
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Old 30-05-2012, 10:17   #10
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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Originally Posted by virginia boy View Post
Well said.

I assume word will spread to other fisherman that one needs to maintain a respectable distance from other people's boats/ships.
Last time I looked, power-driven vessels give way to vessels engaged in fishing.
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Old 30-05-2012, 10:26   #11
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

If you approach a cop in a threatening manner isn't it within the cops rights to defend himself, even if you are later found to be unarmed? Cops can't afford to be wrong. All it takes is for them to be wrong one time.

Also, if warning shots are not an obvious enough warning to back off then I don't know what is good enough.
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Old 30-05-2012, 10:30   #12
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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If you approach a cop in a threatening manner isn't it within the cops rights to defend himself, even if you are later found to be unarmed? Cops can't afford to be wrong. All it takes is for them to be wrong one time.

Also, if warning shots are not an obvious enough warning to back off then I don't know what is good enough.
In my country if the police officer drove a boat through someone's net, they started shouting at him and he shot them dead, he'd get 20 years.
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Old 30-05-2012, 10:39   #13
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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In my country if the police officer drove a boat through someone's net, they started shouting at him and he shot them dead, he'd get 20 years.

Unfortunately in my country he would probably get off with a little paid administrative leave. Cops shoot unarmed people here all the time with no repercussions. As I said before, if you sign up to get paid to be a cop, you should be willing to assume some risk. That's why I have so much more respect for the UK's policemen as compared to ours, the majority go unarmed. And they still actually walk a beat in some places. Our Cops never get out of their cars to talk to the locals, they have no idea what's going on in the neighborhood as a result. And the prevailing paramilitary attitude in the country combined with the habit of hiring soldiers just back from a war zone makes for some really trigger happy cops. A recent event here involved a native american wood carver in downtown Seattle being shot in the back and killed by a cop because he was carrying his (perfectly legal) small carving knife in his hand. He was walking away and did not respond to the cops shouts so the cop shot the little old man in the back and killed him. He was deaf. The cop got no repercussions. Happens all the time.
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Old 30-05-2012, 10:40   #14
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
When I read people suggesting that it is better to shoot an innocent person then be a victim of pirates or that a fisherman is somehow responsible to be sure that a foreign tanker in their fishing grounds doesn't mistake them for a hostile, I can't help but think that some people should just stay home.
Thanks for that.

Some folks' attitude remind me of "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"
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Old 30-05-2012, 10:49   #15
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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If you approach a cop in a threatening manner isn't it within the cops rights to defend himself, even if you are later found to be unarmed?


NO!! It is not within anyones rights to kill you because they believe you are behaving in a threatening manner. That would make every policeman judge, jury, and executioner. Even ib the US police are required to be certain that you are a threat to them or others before firing. It's just that they have gotten away with not doing so for so long here that people have started to believe that sort of drivel. The classic "he reached in his jacket and I thought he was going for a gun" is pure BS. Unless he pulls out a gun and then points it at you you are a murderer if you fire. That's why "stand your ground" is such a ridiculous law, it puts citizens in a position where they can kill anyone based on their own fears. "I thought he was a threat" is not the same thing as "he fired a gun at me". Not willing to get shot at-don't become a policeman or soldier. That's what they get paid for, in theory at least...
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