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Old 30-05-2012, 17:19   #31
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
That new story is terribly queer. If there were two Italian marines, on an Italian-flagged vessel, assigned by their chain of command and following their rules of engagement, they would never have been surrendered to Indian civil authority.

So we're not getting anywhere near the whole story.

Man in a uniform, even camo uniforms, waves you off and points a gun at you? You've got to be a damned fool with a suicide complex to keep on coming at them.

Sounds like the marines grossly violated their ROE and were handed over to civilian authorities because of it.
As others have mentioned, we don't know the circumstances. For example, we have no idea if the fishermen/pirates even realized someone had a bead on them. Visibility may have been poor, the larger vessel may have been in the sunlight or they may have simply been too far away to really get a detailed visual on one another. I lived in India for several years and I can tell you that most fishermen in Kerala have probably never even seen a gun.
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Old 30-05-2012, 19:49   #32
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If I was a pirate, I'd get me a 41 foot white Benne and a silly sailor hat. Then I could approach anyone I wanted because I would be in a good guys boat. The good guys always wear white.

In a future world any white Benne would be suspicious and we would all be justified getting into firefights with any white Benne coming into an anchorage on suspicion of being a pirate.

Or would we then be have to look at the color of the skippers skin...

It is fact that about half of all Americans no longer believe in innocent until proven guilty. Suspicion of a crime is enough and most believe defendants must have done "something" wrong and have to exonerate themselves in court. I saw a doco that stated 50% of polled jurists belive that convicting innocent people on a ratio of as high as on 1-3 is neccessary to preserve societal safety. They also belive that in death cases some innocents will die, but that is OK and part of the price "society" has to pay.

Whoops! Got drug into a pirate, gun and death penalty thread - damn...
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Old 31-05-2012, 05:04   #33
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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Whoops! Got drug into a pirate, gun and death penalty thread - damn...
Drug, I believe you took a running leap! Feel any better?
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Old 31-05-2012, 05:27   #34
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

IMHO the blame goes to the govt of the country that tolerates the pirates on their territory. After all we do not shoot fishermen in the EU, US and some other places of the world, do we.

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Old 31-05-2012, 06:04   #35
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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you could make the same mistake. In several of the gun threads and piracy threads, this is exactly the point I have made. Just sayin.

BBC News - Italian marines in Kerala jail bailed by India court

There are several blaring discrepancies in the multitude of stories from this incident. First is that only the third member of the fishing party and possibly a coconspirator is being believed, secondly is that the Indian government originally said that the incident occured in India's waters but later changed their minds and thirdly that they accepted bail for a capital crime, which, by the way, is unheard of in most if not all countries.
It may be hard to swallow but the truth is somewhere in the middle of the story from the marines and the story of the fisherman, if that is what he was.
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Old 31-05-2012, 06:34   #36
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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There are several blaring discrepancies in the multitude of stories from this incident. First is that only the third member of the fishing party and possibly a coconspirator is being believed, secondly is that the Indian government originally said that the incident occured in India's waters but later changed their minds and thirdly that they accepted bail for a capital crime, which, by the way, is unheard of in most if not all countries.
It may be hard to swallow but the truth is somewhere in the middle of the story from the marines and the story of the fisherman, if that is what he was.
precisely my point in the OP.
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Old 31-05-2012, 08:18   #37
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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IMHO the blame goes to the govt of the country that tolerates the pirates on their territory. After all we do not shoot fishermen in the EU, US and some other places of the world, do we.

b.

There is no organized piracy in India. And they certainly do not "tolerate" piracy, their laws are fairly draconian concerning that sort of thing. If this incident had occured off the horn of africa I think people would be a little more understanding about them being trigger happy, but it happened far away in an area with no real history of piracy. Almost all piracy in India involves bulk container ships at anchor being boarded by guys in canoes and having ships stores or petty money stolen. They are never armed with anything more than knives, because guns are hard to come by in India and the sort of people who conduct piracy there are far too poor to afford that sort of thing. I still want to know how these guys posed any sort of threat to this Italian cargo vessel; their boat was wooden the ship was steel; they had a few feet of freeboard the ship had a wall of steel; they had no guns the ship was armed. The only possible threat these guys could have posed would have been being a sucide bomber boat a la the Cole. But why would anyone try to bomb an Italian cargo vessel? There's just no way these guys were up to anything nefarious, it just wasn't an option for them. I doubt their Keralian fishing boat could have kept up if the skipper just put the throttle down and took off. No threat, no shooting! Very simple. Where were the usual fire hoses in this case? This is what happens when you replace passive defensive measures with idiots with guns and no chain of command...
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