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Old 30-05-2012, 11:05   #16
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

Let's hope you are never on a jury to convict people without all of the facts half a world away.

ROE is not always being shot at first so this is blatantly false. There is standing ROE in the US Military of self defense everywhere. Then there are specific ROE for specific missions. Pointing a weapon at a soldier in Iraq immediately gave you weapons free. Touching a motar tube would do the same. Each country and situation has different ROE. Depending on Italy's Status of Forces agreement and they're ROE at the time will determine their guilt or innocence.

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This is not the first thread on this forum about this incident. Why would two unarmed fishermen "act aggresively" towards a ship so much bigger that theirs? And how would they even do it, what could they possibly do that would be a threat? These fishermen were blatantly murdered, and I hope the Italians get the book thrown at them and are locked up in an Indian prison. Every civilized nation in the world shares one simple ROE: don't shoot until shot at. If you are too much of a coward to follow that one simple rule you should not sign up to be a soldier or policeman, taking risks is what you are being payed for. In this case these fishermen were freaking out because the vessel in question drove right through their clearly marked fishing nets, their only form of livelyhood and not easily replaceable for them. They "buzzed" the ship in question while madly waving their arms and jumping up and down because they did not have a radio, being poor third world fishermen. These idiotic mercenaries took this as a threat and shot them. I have to doubt seriously that warning shots were fired and ignored. I suppose it's possible that they just didn't hear due to engine noise. Just more stupid Rambo wanna be's looking for an excuse to shoot someone. I really hope they end up in an Indian prison, in general population, where they will get theirs and then some...
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Old 30-05-2012, 11:11   #17
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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Let's hope you are never on a jury to convict people without all of the facts half a world away.

ROE is not always being shot at first so this is blatantly false. There is standing ROE in the US Military of self defense everywhere. Then there are specific ROE for specific missions. Pointing a weapon at a soldier in Iraq immediately gave you weapons free. Touching a motar tube would do the same. Each country and situation has different ROE. Depending on Italy's Status of Forces agreement and they're ROE at the time will determine their guilt or innocence.

These men were not working for the military at the time. They were not in an army in an active war zone. They were private contractors acting as security, therefore no official ROE's apply. They will be tried and most likely convicted as civilians, because that's what they are. Can't believe anyone would try to defend them or their actions in this situation. Pure cowardice to fire on a vessel which has not fired on you and has no visible arms, just because it "came too close".
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Old 30-05-2012, 11:17   #18
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

If I were driving a car and I hit and killed some pedestrians, I would go to jail. Even if I blew my horn first to warn them, I would go to jail. Even if they waved their arms and acted aggressively first, I would go to jail.
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Old 30-05-2012, 11:19   #19
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

So again YOU have all the facts. You don't believe in a fair trial or to be defended. Have you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?

In my country it is what sets us above third world justice like you are preaching.

I am not saying that these two are not guilty but it is ridiculous and irresponsible to convict them based on your feelings and minimal facts.


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These men were not working for the military at the time. They were not in an army in an active war zone. They were private contractors acting as security, therefore no official ROE's apply. They will be tried and most likely convicted as civilians, because that's what they are. Can't believe anyone would try to defend them or their actions in this situation. Pure cowardice to fire on a vessel which has not fired on you and has no visible arms, just because it "came too close".
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Old 30-05-2012, 11:26   #20
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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So again YOU have all the facts. You don't believe in a fair trial or to be defended. Have you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?

In my country it is what sets us above third world justice like you are preaching.

I am not saying that these two are not guilty but it is ridiculous and irresponsible to convict them based on your feelings and minimal facts.

Look, I'm not the judge in this case, so there is no way for me to "convict" them of anything. Anything I say here is obviously strictly my opinion and no more. That's how the internet works. And in fact I do have some problem with what India is doing, as the incident happened in international waters and is therefore not in their jurisdiction, but in this case it is my personal opinion that they probably deserve it so I don't feel too bad for them about it. Just like I don't feel too bad for the Somali's that get killed in commando raids to free hostages in Africa. Murderers deserve what they get, wherever they may be from, poor or rich, black or white. All I look for is what's fair and just, and that's ALWAYS a matter of opinion.
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Old 30-05-2012, 11:40   #21
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

Good quote, Jackdale. Hopefully this will be a case where veritatem dies aperit.
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Old 30-05-2012, 12:27   #22
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
This is not the first thread on this forum about this incident. Why would two unarmed fishermen "act aggresively" towards a ship so much bigger that theirs? And how would they even do it, what could they possibly do that would be a threat? These fishermen were blatantly murdered, and I hope the Italians get the book thrown at them and are locked up in an Indian prison. Every civilized nation in the world shares one simple ROE: don't shoot until shot at. If you are too much of a coward to follow that one simple rule you should not sign up to be a soldier or policeman, taking risks is what you are being payed for. In this case these fishermen were freaking out because the vessel in question drove right through their clearly marked fishing nets, their only form of livelyhood and not easily replaceable for them. They "buzzed" the ship in question while madly waving their arms and jumping up and down because they did not have a radio, being poor third world fishermen. These idiotic mercenaries took this as a threat and shot them. I have to doubt seriously that warning shots were fired and ignored. I suppose it's possible that they just didn't hear due to engine noise. Just more stupid Rambo wanna be's looking for an excuse to shoot someone. I really hope they end up in an Indian prison, in general population, where they will get theirs and then some...
Seems like some people here don't really understand the way the world is today. The reality is that pirates (and terrorists) use small boats to attempt to take over (or blow up) large boats. Since the USS Cole was struck, our Navy and Coast Guard won't let anyone get near a US Navy ship in a small boat. They *will* shoot first and ask questions later. You can call me names if you want, but that's just the way it is today. The rash of piracy in certain parts of the world has all navies acting the same way in protecting their shipping interests.

Is it regrettable, sure. Could it have been prevented, probably. But these days they are not going to assume you are harmless if you approach regardless of who or where you are.

Scott
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Old 30-05-2012, 12:30   #23
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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Seems like some people here don't really understand the way the world is today. The reality is that pirates (and terrorists) use small boats to attempt to take over (or blow up) large boats. Since the USS Cole was struck, our Navy and Coast Guard won't let anyone get near a US Navy ship in a small boat. They *will* shoot first and ask questions later. You can call me names if you want, but that's just the way it is today. The rash of piracy in certain parts of the world has all navies acting the same way in protecting their shipping interests.

Is it regrettable, sure. Could it have been prevented, probably. But these days they are not going to assume you are harmless if you approach regardless of who or where you are.

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Old 30-05-2012, 13:46   #24
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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In my country if the police officer drove a boat through someone's net, they started shouting at him and he shot them dead, he'd get 20 years.
Maybe. But here in the US, if he just drove over them in a drunken high speed blur and killed them.... maybe all that would happen is he might get fired... years later...

google Russell Perdock

so I wouldn't count on any justice myself...
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Old 30-05-2012, 14:08   #25
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
... Some folks' attitude remind me of "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"
"Kill 'em all and let God sort them out"

Arnaud (or Arnau) Amalric was a Cistercian church leader who took a prominent role in the Albigensian Crusade. He is remembered for allegedly giving advice to a soldier wondering how to distinguish the Catholic friendlies from the Cathar enemies to just "Kill them all. For the Lord knows them that are His."

Not exactly the attitude that fosters "leaving a clean wake".

“... There’s battle lines being drawn.
Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong...”

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Old 30-05-2012, 14:53   #26
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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"Kill 'em all and let God sort them out"

Arnaud (or Arnau) Amalric was a Cistercian church leader who took a prominent role in the Albigensian Crusade. He is remembered for allegedly giving advice to a soldier wondering how to distinguish the Catholic friendlies from the Cathar enemies to just "Kill them all. For the Lord knows them that are His."

Not exactly the attitude that fosters "leaving a clean wake".

“... There’s battle lines being drawn.
Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong...”
For What It's Worth
Recorded by Buffalo Springfield, Written by Stephen Stills

Interesting. Cardinal Richelieu was famous for making that quote, I believe in reference to the Hugeunots, and I always thought he was the source ( it's just so his style); but Amalric certainly predated him by quite a bit.
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Old 30-05-2012, 15:17   #27
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

if if if but but if but

there's my argument
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Old 30-05-2012, 15:44   #28
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

That new story is terribly queer. If there were two Italian marines, on an Italian-flagged vessel, assigned by their chain of command and following their rules of engagement, they would never have been surrendered to Indian civil authority.

So we're not getting anywhere near the whole story.

Man in a uniform, even camo uniforms, waves you off and points a gun at you? You've got to be a damned fool with a suicide complex to keep on coming at them.

Sounds like the marines grossly violated their ROE and were handed over to civilian authorities because of it.
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Old 30-05-2012, 16:28   #29
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Re: If Trained Military Mistake Fishermen for Pirates ...

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That new story is terribly queer. If there were two Italian marines, on an Italian-flagged vessel, assigned by their chain of command and following their rules of engagement, they would never have been surrendered to Indian civil authority.

So we're not getting anywhere near the whole story.

Man in a uniform, even camo uniforms, waves you off and points a gun at you? You've got to be a damned fool with a suicide complex to keep on coming at them.

Sounds like the marines grossly violated their ROE and were handed over to civilian authorities because of it.

A different story I read said they were working as private contractors at the time. I don't think the Italian government just handed them over, it was a big international incident because India refused to give them back. The Italians never denied guilt, they just wanted them tried in an Italian court instead of Indian (we all know how that would end). The Italian government even offered to pay reparations to the families of the victims if the Indians would hand them over. 180k for a life. Apparently that's the value of an Indian fisherman.
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Old 30-05-2012, 16:42   #30
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Re: If trained military mistake fishermen for pirates ...

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Originally Posted by s/vPainkiller View Post
Seems like some people here don't really understand the way the world is today. The reality is that pirates (and terrorists) use small boats to attempt to take over (or blow up) large boats. Since the USS Cole was struck, our Navy and Coast Guard won't let anyone get near a US Navy ship in a small boat. They *will* shoot first and ask questions later. You can call me names if you want, but that's just the way it is today. The rash of piracy in certain parts of the world has all navies acting the same way in protecting their shipping interests.

Is it regrettable, sure. Could it have been prevented, probably. But these days they are not going to assume you are harmless if you approach regardless of who or where you are.

Scott

This was not an American Naval vessel. That sort of behavior is more understandable in that case, as hundreds of lives may be at stake and just about everyone evrywhere knows to stay well clear of naval vessels, as well as the fact that they are extremely well equipped when it comes to making warnings and making their intent clear before firing for effect. This was an Italian cargo vessel with just the two marines aboard as private security. If no one anywhere can approach even a cargo vessel without risk of being shot at, where does that leave the countless people in the world who can't afford or even obtain a radio? Hailing a vessel at sea is no longer safe because now it's OK to shoot anyone who tries to do so? This contravenes all the traditions of the sea, and it is behavior which makes me so angry it's silly. All we need now is for one idiotic cruiser with an AR to do the same thing and we will all start to have problems. Next thing you know instead of responding to assist vessels in need of aid, we will only respond to the right kind of vessels in need. As in, those guys might be pirates, because their boat is not like mine, lets not help them. That's where we'll be headed if people are allowed to get away with that sort of thinking and behavior. I think the Italian government should let them keep the marines AND pay the reparations. Just to be polite about it.
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