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Old 25-11-2015, 14:50   #31
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

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Originally Posted by tankersteve View Post
Extreme cold makes you unable to swim, if without a life jacket. Unconsciousness quickly follows. Then you drown if you don't have a PFD.

To quote Mario Vittone directly:

It is impossible to get hypothermic in cold water unless you are wearing flotation, because without flotation you wont live long enough to become hypothermic.

- See more at: Cold Water Survival – The 1-10-1 Rule « Coast Guard Auxiliary Live

If you have a PFD, you are buying time, but it is measured in minutes, not hours (less than 50 degrees F) - likely not more than 60 minutes or so.

If you have a survival suit, you bought a few to several hours.

In a life raft, you bought a few days.

Here's a pretty good link that gets into specifics:

Cold Water Survival

From the USCG:http://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/coldwater1.pdf

Tankersteve
Too many absolutes here. Whilst I agree we can't underestimate the seriousness of cold water and how the colder the water the less time you have to be rescued, there is no definate or absoluteness around it. History is full of stories of many many people who ruin times put on how long you will live. The Titanic is the most well known with cries for help being heard up to an hour after the sinking.
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Old 25-11-2015, 14:59   #32
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

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I recommend short tethers for all, both short and tall persons. Being dragged by a boat that is still moving is not a nice position to be in. Better to have the tethers so short that it is not possible to fall out of the boat.
Yep, if it is nasty. I think it can be over done. A nice afternoon or evening sail who wants to have something around their neck and a rope tied to them. Even if you slip over the side with a decent crew you will be retrieved if you can swim. It is assessing the situation and err on the safe side but not making sailing something other than fun.
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Old 25-11-2015, 15:22   #33
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

Rustic Charm,

I agree that absolutes are not necessarily appropriate as things such as layers worn, amount of body fat, previous alcohol ingestion - they all are factors.

However, the anecdotal tale of the Titanic and other incidences don't change the percentage likelihood of survival. In the Titanic case, many folks were likely at least partially out of the water due to the amount of flotsam in the immediate area. The USCG is very adamant that getting out of the water, which has a heat transfer rate as much as 32x what air can have, is critical to extending survival time.

Also, some of the areas you highlighted are hard to dispute. For instance, I doubt many folks don't drown when not wearing a PFD and are unconscious. Also, 60 minutes is the outside limit on full immersion in water under 50 degrees, at least in the websites that I have mentioned or quoted. Did I list it as an absolute? No, I stated that your survival is measured in minutes, versus hours. This simply assumed sub-50 degree water and a PFD.

I don't think you'll find many respected studies that give average life expectancies over 60 minutes in those conditions. Are there exceptions? Sure, but I don't plan based on exceptions.

As for the quote from Vittone, I am willing to bet he has more experience than both of us combined and I'll stand by that quote. In cold weather, hypothermia in the water still takes a while. Other things can and will kill you sooner.

Tankersteve
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Old 25-11-2015, 16:25   #34
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

Please, let us be well aware that even warm water eventually kills, in hours if not in minutes
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Old 25-11-2015, 16:40   #35
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

For those who plan on falling off the boat without a pfd you might want to Google "Drownproofing", a survival technique invented by the late Fred Lanoue, who at the time was the swimming coach at Georgia Tech.
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Old 25-11-2015, 17:38   #36
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

For winter weather gear">foul weather gear, consider this. Nearly as comfortable as foul weather gear, and you won't mind the cold. Add a dive hood and gloves and you may just enjoy the swim. Being MOB still sucks.





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Old 25-11-2015, 21:12   #37
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

Just to add some more gloom, a recent Australian seminar conducted by the head of a state government authority revealed some facts behind pfd's.
The federal PFD testing was done in a pool, where people wearing just swimsuits jumped into the water, to observe the performance of the PFD, and their certification was issued accordingly.
A series of vountary tests conducted afterwards showed ZERO PFD's being able to reliably return a person wearing full waterproof gear, to a face up, reclining position without operator assistance.
Basically, if you are unconcious from a blow when you go overboard in heavy weather gear, you cant trust your PFD to put your body into survival position.

Another statistic you may want to look up is the number of drowned male sailors that the coastguard find with their trouser flys unzipped. Relaxing for a leak on the side of the boat is high risk.

Personally, I think it is criminal for inflatable PFD's to be sold without a crotch strap. It took considerable effort to locate some straps when I found this out on a purchase some years ago.
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Old 25-11-2015, 22:02   #38
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

I am with RNW on "I think it is criminal for inflatable PFD's to be sold without a crotch strap."

One of the most common PFDs around here is the brand that pioneered the "floater jacket" concept. Those jackets had no crotch straps. In consequence they bunched up under your arms as they tried to float and you tried to sink. Doing that, since most of the flotation force was at your back, they turned you face down. No need to mention names. You all know the brand.

Flying in the face of "authority" I argued against those jackets. Thus my vehemence when I argue that the ONLY proper concern is the concern that keeps you inboard ALWAYS. Tethers!

TrentePieds
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Old 26-11-2015, 06:31   #39
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

What is it exactly that you are wearing in the photos? How cold was the water? (intended for thinwater comment #36 above)
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Old 26-11-2015, 07:00   #40
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

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What is it exactly that you are wearing in the photos? How cold was the water? (intended for thinwater comment #36 above)
Ocean Rodeo Soul dry suit (the Ignite would be a better choice--very similar). About 33F. You need street clothes under it down to about 50, and fleece (2 layers) at 32F.
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Old 26-11-2015, 07:05   #41
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

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...A series of vountary tests conducted afterwards showed ZERO PFD's being able to reliably return a person wearing full waterproof gear, to a face up, reclining position without operator assistance.
Basically, if you are unconcious from a blow when you go overboard in heavy weather gear, you cant trust your PFD to put your body into survival position.
I assume the problem is air trapped in the back of the jacket and pants? This can even happen in immersion suits; they are very stable on the back, face up, once you get there, but if the air moves to the back, they can be stable face down too.

Really, the tests should require full gear, that a tether be released under load with the bladder inflated, and that any gear (knife, whistle) be accessible inflated.

Yes, they do over-promise.
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Old 26-11-2015, 13:14   #42
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

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Originally Posted by tankersteve View Post
Rustic Charm,

I agree that absolutes are not necessarily appropriate as things such as layers worn, amount of body fat, previous alcohol ingestion - they all are factors.

However, the anecdotal tale of the Titanic and other incidences don't change the percentage likelihood of survival. In the Titanic case, many folks were likely at least partially out of the water due to the amount of flotsam in the immediate area. The USCG is very adamant that getting out of the water, which has a heat transfer rate as much as 32x what air can have, is critical to extending survival time.

Also, some of the areas you highlighted are hard to dispute. For instance, I doubt many folks don't drown when not wearing a PFD and are unconscious. Also, 60 minutes is the outside limit on full immersion in water under 50 degrees, at least in the websites that I have mentioned or quoted. Did I list it as an absolute? No, I stated that your survival is measured in minutes, versus hours. This simply assumed sub-50 degree water and a PFD.

I don't think you'll find many respected studies that give average life expectancies over 60 minutes in those conditions. Are there exceptions? Sure, but I don't plan based on exceptions.

As for the quote from Vittone, I am willing to bet he has more experience than both of us combined and I'll stand by that quote. In cold weather, hypothermia in the water still takes a while. Other things can and will kill you sooner.

Tankersteve
All I was responding to was your 'absolute' statements. And yes, 'impossible' is an absolute. And don't pretend you know anything about me until you do. I won't respond to everything else you responded too because firstly I don't disagree and secondly because you have simply made up stuff to correct me in that I didn't raise.
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Old 26-11-2015, 13:23   #43
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNW View Post
Just to add some more gloom, a recent Australian seminar conducted by the head of a state government authority revealed some facts behind pfd's.
The federal PFD testing was done in a pool, where people wearing just swimsuits jumped into the water, to observe the performance of the PFD, and their certification was issued accordingly.
A series of vountary tests conducted afterwards showed ZERO PFD's being able to reliably return a person wearing full waterproof gear, to a face up, reclining position without operator assistance.
Basically, if you are unconcious from a blow when you go overboard in heavy weather gear, you cant trust your PFD to put your body into survival position.

Another statistic you may want to look up is the number of drowned male sailors that the coastguard find with their trouser flys unzipped. Relaxing for a leak on the side of the boat is high risk.

Personally, I think it is criminal for inflatable PFD's to be sold without a crotch strap. It took considerable effort to locate some straps when I found this out on a purchase some years ago.
Our state marine Authority this year did a series of training/demonstrations with 'inflatable' pfd's and it was very alarming. Just as you state, with full clothing, quite a few failed to inflate properly and quite a few failed to turn people into their backs. The non inflatable pfd's I believe responded as designed.

The crotch strap is mandatory when involved in organized racing events but as you say there are plenty to be purchased in store without them. One of mine has a crotch strap attached with two of those plastic clips which I seriously doubt would survive Remaining in one piece when trying to lift someone from the water.
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Old 26-11-2015, 13:53   #44
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Our state marine Authority this year did a series of training/demonstrations with 'inflatable' pfd's and it was very alarming. Just as you state, with full clothing, quite a few failed to inflate properly and quite a few failed to turn people into their backs. The non inflatable pfd's I believe responded as designed.

The crotch strap is mandatory when involved in organized racing events but as you say there are plenty to be purchased in store without them. One of mine has a crotch strap attached with two of those plastic clips which I seriously doubt would survive Remaining in one piece when trying to lift someone from the water.
The straps are rated to keep the PFD on in the water. They are NOT rated for the impact force of a fall on a tether or recovery. Just ask them (I did, researching for an article). They would have to be 5000-pound rated. Which would hurt.
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Old 26-11-2015, 15:12   #45
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Re: If go overboard, how can one keep still in cold water?

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The crotch strap is mandatory when involved in organized racing events but as you say there are plenty to be purchased in store without them. One of mine has a crotch strap attached with two of those plastic clips which I seriously doubt would survive Remaining in one piece when trying to lift someone from the water.
There are also some combined pdf+harness models available. Maybe a nice combination for some sailors.
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