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Old 14-05-2012, 08:49   #451
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
At the risk of thread drift (but, hey, it's page 30 ) - one thing that gets edited out of the "alcohol related" automobile accident statistics is that the vast majority of "drunk" drivers not only don't kill anyone (self or others) but they don't even have accidents. Probably because most "drunk" drivers are not actually drunk...........and that any idiot can drive a car (witness many folks on the road who are sober ).

Of course not saying that driving drunk / DUI is a good idea - just that it is not as bad as implied (somewhere between going postal and kiddy fiddling). Driving Drunk doesn't kill - hitting stuff does.
Eloquent And accurate.
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Old 14-05-2012, 08:54   #452
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
It is amazing what is on your car that has evolved from racing, starting with seat belts and radial tires.

Having cruised and raced (I started by racing on a Tartan 10) I often feel safer on race boats.

Racers will often reduce sail sooner than cruisers because they know a flatter boat is faster. Racers go as faster as possible in the prevailing conditions. Anyone can sail big wind, great crews can sail in light air.

I used to race cars too on the rally circuit as a co-driver. I always felt safer in a rally car than a street car, especially after being in some serious high speed accidents.

I am delivering a Vic Maui race boat back to Vancouver this summer. It is not comfortable, but it is safe. The comfort can be fixed easily. For example, the dodger is being stored in the V berth for the race and installed for the delivery.

Race cars and boats involve the same philosophy: you cannot finish first if you do not finish.

That would imply that raceing is safer than cruising.

Like since the cruiser is carrying all the stuff a racer does he is safer even though he does not reef in time.

I think not.

And all this time the mantra here for cruisers (and especially the crazy multihullers) has been to reef early. Anyone here for any amount of time has heard that multiple times.

I know NASA got us the pumping ball point pen and all. But some just used a pencil and made it back.
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Old 14-05-2012, 09:09   #453
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Like since the cruiser is carrying all the stuff a racer does he is safer even though he does not reef in time.
A touch more thread drift.

In my experience racers tend to reduce sail sooner than many cruisers. They can also keep their boats flatter using railmeat, but they also want to reduce weather helm.

About the only time you will see a racer carrying more sail than a cruiser is downwind, but they tend to have the experienced crew necessary to do so. On one boat on which I crewed we had 3 spinnakers for different conditions.
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Old 14-05-2012, 09:40   #454
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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The Victoria-Maui race list is one of the tougher ones. It does require a life raft and an EPIRB. It specifies requirements for the raft, its contents, and the ability to launch and board the raft. It recommends that the EPIRB be GPS enabled. And, it suggests that an AIS transponder will be required for participants in 2014. Clearly, the organizers think a raft and a beacon are necessary for a 2300-nm ocean-crossing race through potentially severe conditions. Also, the checklist is long and detailed enough that the very process of working through it should be educational for many sailors.
The Vic Maui boat I am bringing back will have an AIS for this year. I am not sure if it is a transceiver or just a receiver. I am contemplating buying a usb receiver that I can move from boat to boat.

I agree that the checklist is great for considerations that might be included for cruising boat. Even some of the practices used for the race have been enlightening. I had not thought of taping the lifeline pelican clips closed until I saw it done on Turicum.
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Old 14-05-2012, 13:10   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

At the risk of thread drift (but, hey, it's page 30 ) - one thing that gets edited out of the "alcohol related" automobile accident statistics is that the vast majority of "drunk" drivers not only don't kill anyone (self or others) but they don't even have accidents. Probably because most "drunk" drivers are not actually drunk...........and that any idiot can drive a car (witness many folks on the road who are sober ).

Of course not saying that driving drunk / DUI is a good idea - just that it is not as bad as implied (somewhere between going postal and kiddy fiddling). Driving Drunk doesn't kill - hitting stuff does.
I disagree, a friend of mine was hit by a drunk here in Alaska who was pulling 75 mph on a car. He now has serious back-neck-shoulder problems. The only reason he's still alive is he was in a jeep with a large lift kit. So the drunk went mostly under his jeep. P.S. it was a T-Bone accident.
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Old 15-05-2012, 11:04   #456
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

viking,
thanks for the url. Either prices have really dropped, or the "distributors" were really raking me over. (Supporting their msrp, whatever.)

rusty-
Yes, there can be a lot more to maintenance than just changing the batteries. Or as Groucho Marx and Sigmund Freud both are alleged to have said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. An o-ring is a dollar part, a pressure test doesn't need to take your epirb down to 100 meters. Mine isn't abovedeck exposed in a hydrostatic cradle, if it doesn't leak at "surface" pressure, that's all I'll ask of it. Well, unless a giant kraken suddenly pulls us all down to 100 meters, in which case I've got more problems than the o-ring in the epirb. Like, who carries enough oil and vinegar to make calimari out of anything THAT big?

jackdale-
"For example, the dodger is being stored in the V berth for the race" I'd argue that is not a race boat. Racers take dead weight off the boat, they don't stow it in the bow. <G>
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Old 15-05-2012, 14:42   #457
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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jackdale-
"For example, the dodger is being stored in the V berth for the race" I'd argue that is not a race boat. Racers take dead weight off the boat, they don't stow it in the bow. <G>
Without the dodger the cockpit is very wet. The trip back home is mostly upwind.

They are also carrying the delivery sails on the race. I have seen crews flying to Maui with the sails for homeward trip..
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Old 15-05-2012, 16:31   #458
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
At the risk of thread drift (but, hey, it's page 30 ) - one thing that gets edited out of the "alcohol related" automobile accident statistics is that the vast majority of "drunk" drivers not only don't kill anyone (self or others) but they don't even have accidents. Probably because most "drunk" drivers are not actually drunk...........and that any idiot can drive a car (witness many folks on the road who are sober ).

Of course not saying that driving drunk / DUI is a good idea - just that it is not as bad as implied (somewhere between going postal and kiddy fiddling). Driving Drunk doesn't kill - hitting stuff does.
Another way of looking at it is all those drunk/ DUI drivers caught where lucky as they were about to be involved in an accident and the Police saved them and their victims.

Or if 15 % of all fatal accidents involve Alcohol then the easy answer is 85% are caused by non alcohol effected drivers, who should be off the road.
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Old 15-05-2012, 17:05   #459
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

"They are also carrying the"
Drive 'em over to the US, and mail it to Hawaii. Or get a freight quote. Really, a racing boat carrying cargo ?!
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Old 15-05-2012, 21:03   #460
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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"They are also carrying the"
Drive 'em over to the US, and mail it to Hawaii. Or get a freight quote. Really, a racing boat carrying cargo ?!
Honestly, it depends on your boat and your racing style. For the Pacific Cup (San Francisco to Hawaii) the race organizers arrange for a container to / from Hawaii, for those who want to swap out racing for delivery gear when they get to Hawaii. Some times I use the container, but some times I don't bother. VALIS is a heavy boat, and we aren't particularly competitive. Actually, my delivery sails are also my race sails, I just carry more spinnakers when I race.

If you are talking about a hard-core racing boat, then the extra weight makes a big difference. For us it makes less of a difference, and I don't obsess about it. And for me to come in first, everyone else is going to have to make some major strategic blunders. I'm still waiting for that to happen.

I'm not the only one with this attitude, and we all have a great time.

[Wow, talk about thread drift! I had to look at the first post to see what the original topic was...]
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Old 15-05-2012, 21:46   #461
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Honestly, it depends on your boat and your racing style. For the Pacific Cup (San Francisco to Hawaii) the race organizers arrange for a container to / from Hawaii, for those who want to swap out racing for delivery gear when they get to Hawaii.
Nice touch.

Back on topic.

Race boat checklists do provide a lot to think about when going offshore. Do you practice MOB beforehand, do you carry an extra water supply, is your fridge lid lockable, etc.. Vic Maui has a safety consultation before the race to see if anything has been missed.

The major difference between offshore racing and offshore cruising is the engine. In racing it provides electricity; in cruising it provides propulsion as well. In many cases you are in the same waters. Some use the Vic Maui Race as the start of the there offshore trip to the South Pacific.

In racing another major difference may be the transponders; you are being tracked at all times. And there is daily check-in. On the return we run a SSB net each evening.

Remember that the job of a skipper is the safety of the crew. That means planning for as many contingencies as possible, as well as making those contingencies as unlikely as possible.

I you want to make insurance companies and lawyers the scapegoats, go ahead.
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Old 15-05-2012, 22:02   #462
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

Bill Cosby asked the question most clearly - "How long can you tread water?"
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Old 15-05-2012, 22:05   #463
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Bill Cosby asked the question most clearly - "How long can you tread water?"
Right!

What's a cubit?
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Old 16-05-2012, 02:28   #464
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

In terms of EPIRBS, I've responded to an EPIRB distress before relayed by the Spanish Coastguard. Headed to the position in the bay of biscay, and found an almost submerged sailing vessel with the two occupants clinging to it; rescue successful. Without the EPIRB, i doubt the outcome would have been as good.
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Old 16-05-2012, 02:54   #465
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I think given the low cost of Epirbs you'd be certifiable sailing out of VHF range without one. Liferafts arnt too expensive either ( outside the US) again why not have one . I'd forget SARTS, a GEPIRB is much better. In my case offshore I carry a PLB and the vessel has a EPIRB

Quote:
But a critical mistake I've read about, is people abandoning a boat and then getting rescued and then finding their abandoned boat still floating later on. So one thing not to do is abandon the boat without it actually sinking, as your abandoning. Your safer on the boat than you are on the raft unless the railing is in the water.
That's a truism Lt, and like all truisms it needs interpretation. There are several events that can force you into the liferaft. I've been in boats where the inside became a missile laden area and the batteries and stove were flying around. A liferaft may the only option here.
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