How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

[callmecrazy]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day all,

What a contentious and actually interesting thread.

I am intrigued by the list of SARSAT callouts posted by Evans. I notice an astonishingly large number of the events were in Australian waters. Now, my observations have not convinced me that the waters in question are unusually hazardous, nor that the Aussies are unusually bad sailors or boat maintainers.

But the Aussie gov has decreed that all boats leaving the immediate inshore waters MUST carry an EPIRB. And lo, lots of callouts follow. Not too surprising, really.

So, does this mean that there have been far fewer casualties in Australian waters than elsewhere, where the carrying of this device is not mandated? I dunno, but I really doubt it, and there wasn't any evidence in the list that I could see.

My question then is: The enforced carrying of EPIRBS has increased the incidence of callouts and "rescues", but has it actually increased the safety of boaters in those areas? I'd be interested in others opinions on this facet.

It might shine some light on the original line of questioning...

Cheers,

Jim

I don't know that you can say they have increased for any reason without similar data from previous years (post and prior to the law mandating epirbs). Also, AFAIK the mandate in Australia is to carry an epirb if you are going offshore. So how do we know the people using them nearshore had the epirb by choice and not because it's a law?

You also have to take into account that Australia is entirely surrounded by ocean. Do they have more sailors per capita/mile compared to other countries?

I think this data doesn't really show anything regarding usage statistics, other than people are infact using epirbs and getting rescued.

[catty]

The general consenses in Australia is, if the regulators are going to make one purchase an EPIRB and then repeatedly search your vessel to make sure you have one, and fine you if you don't , then you may as well use it at every oppotunity to "get ones moneys worth".

See........Poor boat safety remains big concern

Interesting they are 2009 figures?
Just say'n.

[meyermm]

The general consenses in Australia - Love it when something becomes fact just because someone says so. The fact is we do have very rough conditions at times a fact that some non Australians emphasised to me before a Pacific crossing, please no debate as to who worst conditions. All I am saying is the East coast which I am familiar with does have some very rough conditions.
The figures posted by the anti safety equipment lobby are suspect, why, Australian population is around 25 million which is probably the population of Los Angeles. So are they saying that with such a small population we have some massive boat ownership (offshore sailing) and that we lead the world in rescue call outs. Please even if we are the worst sailors in the world the numbers do not add up. Statitics can be made to show what ever you want them to show politicians are masters at it.

[boatman61]

Thread Drift...............................

[callmecrazy]

I think what this data does show is that of the people who choose to call for help, most of them were not in life threatening situations. And probably all of the situations could have been prevented one way or another.

But what it doesn't show, is whether or not the same people would have simply used a radio or another method, to call for help had they not owned an epirb.
We really can't say that the epirb caused them to call for help, but what it did do is give the rescuers a quicker response time and pinpoint accuracy. Who's to say these people wouldn't have just drifted away had they not had an epirb? Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing in some people's minds but I personally believe all lives are worth saving no matter how stupid or useless they are, and a device that makes that easier can't be a bad thing.

It seems like if all these people are going to be getting themselves into trouble and calling for help, and our governments and rescue operations are going to continue to help them whether they need it or not, then it makes sense to make those rescues as quick and easy as possible in every way available.

That doesn't help us of course, since we're all hardcore sailors and won't ever need that kind of help but all this ragging on epirbs and liferafts seems a bit like condemning fire extinguishers and Ambulances for causing people to smoke cigarettes.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by callmecrazy

I think what this data does show is that of the people who choose to call for help, most of them were not in life threatening situations. And probably all of the situations could have been prevented one way or another.

This is Australian SAR data from 2004 (all incidents as s/v incidents are not broken out):

Outcome Of Incidents:
Safety confirmed 44.0%
RCC monitored situation 12.2%
Advice provided 11.7%
Aus Rep Message Passed 9.6%
Details passed on 8.2%
Coordination transferred 2.8%
Rescue/medevac effected 2.7%
SAR assistance provided .9%
No RCC action .4%

[catty]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Thread Drift...............................

I'm not sure who you are referring to here.
Setting off EPIRBS in non threatening situations has become so common that some authorities are now sceptical that an emergency situation actually exists.

The acronym EPIRB is locally known in the Torres straits as "Empty petrol I require Boat". See report into tragedy here>>>> http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/MaluSara20080212.pdf

paying special attention to...
Sergeant Flegg’s attitude was coloured by his perception that people in the Torres Strait habitually activate EPIRBs when they are inconvenienced rather than in peril.
Sergeant Flegg gave evidence he was familiar with a corruption of the acronym used by the authorities in the Torres Strait for an activated EPIRB, to the effect – "Empty Petrol I Require Boat".

I for one wonder weather one can still rely on an EPIRB to bring the required results in some areas of the world. Maybe an extra bige pump or a little experience might be a better investment.

Regards.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by catty

I'm not sure who you are referring to here.
Setting off EPIRBS in non threatening situations has become so common that some authorities are now sceptical that an emergency situation actually exists.

The acronym EPIRB is locally known in the Torres straits as "Empty petrol I require Boat". See report into tragedy here>>>> http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/MaluSara20080212.pdf

paying special attention to...
Sergeant Flegg’s attitude was coloured by his perception that people in the Torres Strait habitually activate EPIRBs when they are inconvenienced rather than in peril.
Sergeant Flegg gave evidence he was familiar with a corruption of the acronym used by the authorities in the Torres Strait for an activated EPIRB, to the effect – "Empty Petrol I Require Boat".

I for one wonder weather one can still rely on an EPIRB to bring the required results in some areas of the world. Maybe an extra bige pump or a little experience might be a better investment.

Regards.

I think I've heard this before....
Oh Yes.... it was an RNLI lifeboat skipper....

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by callmecrazy

I think what this data does show is that of the people who choose to call for help, most of them were not in life threatening situations. And probably all of the situations could have been prevented one way or another.

But what it doesn't show, is whether or not the same people would have simply used a radio or another method, to call for help had they not owned an epirb.
We really can't say that the epirb caused them to call for help, but what it did do is give the rescuers a quicker response time and pinpoint accuracy. Who's to say these people wouldn't have just drifted away had they not had an epirb? Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing in some people's minds but I personally believe all lives are worth saving no matter how stupid or useless they are, and a device that makes that easier can't be a bad thing.

It seems like if all these people are going to be getting themselves into trouble and calling for help, and our governments and rescue operations are going to continue to help them whether they need it or not, then it makes sense to make those rescues as quick and easy as possible in every way available.

That doesn't help us of course, since we're all hardcore sailors and won't ever need that kind of help but all this ragging on epirbs and liferafts seems a bit like condemning fire extinguishers and Ambulances for causing people to smoke cigarettes.

The beauty about EPIRB's is...
1/ You don't have to look at your chart/GPS to find your position...
2/ You don't have to worry if your VHF skills are good enough to be understood..
Like a lotta things these days.... someone else can deal with the trivia....

[callmecrazy]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The beauty about EPIRB's is...
1/ You don't have to look at your chart/GPS to find your position...
2/ You don't have to worry if your VHF skills are good enough to be understood..
Like a lotta things these days.... someone else can deal with the trivia....

"Like a lotta things these days.... some device can deal with the trivia..."

Fixed that for you.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by callmecrazy

"Like a lotta things these days.... some device can deal with the trivia..."

Fixed that for you.

Cheers mate... its 0503 and its been a fun night with Chicken Piri Piri at a restaurant with friends... beer, red wine, Liquer Biron ... and brandy when I got back.... so the brains not all there... (wot brain)
Its good to know smeones watching my back.... I thinks....
Anyway... Merry Christmas...

[callmecrazy]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Cheers mate... its 0503 and its been a fun night with Chicken Piri Piri at a restaurant with friends... beer, red wine, Liquer Biron ... and brandy when I got back.... so the brains not all there... (wot brain)
Its good to know smeones watching my back.... I thinks....
Anyway... Merry Christmas...

Your wisdom is sound, mate. The world would be a better place if Epirbs were programmed to call you and ask for advice on the situation I mean that in a good way... Unfortunately, people suck, most of the time, and it ain't getting any better.
Happy New Year!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by psneeld

You are way off if you are refering to the USCG..and you really CAN'T argue the point because the system is in place and working just fine the way it HAS been for many years in the US. The people who do this for a living can and do make those decisions....and were doing it long before all the great advice from internet forums No I KNOW the world isn't the US...but the US performs rescues all over the world.

Over here folks had opinions even before the internet

Glad it's all working out for you guys and appreciate that the USCG is about more than rescuing folks.

But just to mention (as a small comparison to the Australian EPIRB experiance) in this part of the world the Govt only provides an inshore rescue RIB (part of the fire service). and that is also about cliff rescues - so not entirely a resource for mariners.

No helicopter S&R here - but the French can be called upon, if needed. Am not entirely sure, but I suspect payment is involved for that - and certainly it doesn't get called out regularly. The 2 may be linked

In addition, there is a volunteer spotter plane that (I beleive) covers the whole of the CI. But nobody jumps out of it to undertake rescues I think it gets some funding from the Govt, but not all.

and finally of course there is the RNLI - being a volunteer (no Govt Funding) organisation. They provide an all weather lifeboat, plus a RIB.

I mention all the above because although the odd person ends up dead, the lack of resources isn't really a factor. and it ain't down to training, licencing or equipment requirements either (we ain't got any of that). I suspect the low body count is both down to a lack of expectation that "someone" will always be on hand to help, and probably most to do with the lack of sunny weather 24/7 making people realise that the sea is not always freindly.

Fully funded means just that ...the same amount is spent whether on actual rescues or burning it up training or miscellaneous missions. Crews get paid to sit or fly/float.

Fully Funded? Bottomless pit of money If that works for you all, then great (lets hope the Chinese up the Credit Card limit next month)....but over here we like to be self reliant and that includes being self funding (aka living within our means).

No matter....My point was to launch early and find someone BEFORE it became dangerous...and it's infinitely easier to go straight to an EPIRB and determine the problem and start a fix than to get a call from a relative and search all night for a simple breakdown that didn't feel the urgency to push the EPIRB button...

Searching for those overdue who have no better means to communicate other than their EPIRB DOES use up the resources faster and doesn't allow as much time to spend thinking about the solution to global warming.

Sure... exhaust all other means...but when night fall or approaching bad weather is at hand and the situation doesn't look like it's gonna change...then it was always my professional position to go ahead and use the EPIRB.

"Rescue early and Rescue often" does have an attraction for all concerned - apart from those paying for it (and therefore diverting cash from elsewhere - which ultimately leads to regulation from the "something must be done" brigade ........even if that in turn leads to a self sustaining bureacracy that is more expensive).

Appreciate that no professional can ever say "don't call for help" and not looking to decry those who head out in conditions that keep me tucked up in bed , but IMO a bit more "F#ck off and sort yourself out - we'll be out in the morning" might work well, for prevention

Not to say that folks should not press whatever buttons they have onboard - everyone gets to make there own decisions when at sea.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by meyermm

The figures posted by the anti safety equipment lobby are suspect, why, Australian population is around 25 million which is probably the population of Los Angeles. So are they saying that with such a small population we have some massive boat ownership (offshore sailing) and that we lead the world in rescue call outs. Please even if we are the worst sailors in the world the numbers do not add up. Statitics can be made to show what ever you want them to show politicians are masters at it.

Maybe the rise in safety incidents mirrors the increased popularity of Catamarans?

[meyermm]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Maybe the rise in safety incidents mirrors the increased popularity of Catamarans?

Very brave of you to make a comment like that but you may be closer to the truth than you realise. My comment not being about the boats but more about the people who buy them. They seem to view there boats as glorified house boats. They do attract sailors who like everything to be comfortable all the time and are marketed to that kind of buyer.