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Old 26-04-2011, 12:47   #241
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry Evans people who supposedly called out for rescue in so called trivial situations (a) who are we to judge when people should panic. (b) the stories are always third hand and often when you hear a first hand account are different
Well, we can agree to disagree whether I myself made a mistake - but I suspect I know more about that situation than you do. I also have talked first hand with both the crew and the rescuers in the other situations I mentioned. They were very uncomfortable and stressed but equally clearly not in any danger. In the days before epirbs and the rescue network these folks would clearly have saved themselves - they would have had to.

As to the statistical relevance - who knows, neither you nor I have any decent data to draw that conclusion. Even if we had the data, there are not enough cruising boat incidents to draw any sort of statistical conclusion.
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Old 26-04-2011, 12:53   #242
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Originally Posted by estarzinger

Well, we can agree to disagree whether I myself made a mistake - but I suspect I know more about that situation than you do. I also have talked first hand with both the crew and the rescuers in the other situations I mentioned. They were very uncomfortable and stressed but equally clearly not in any danger.

As to the statistical relevance - who knows, neither you nor I have any decent data to draw that conclusion. Even if we had the data, there are not enough cruising boat incidents to draw any sort of statistical conclusion.
QED ,which is why I said it was an opinion. Mine maybe too but you started it. Equally as to your experience sure it's well documented. Mine isn't but I have worked with a world renowned rescue agency and been trained by them and they don't agree with your view.

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Old 26-04-2011, 13:02   #243
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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QED ,which is why I said it was an opinion. Mine maybe too but you started it. Equally as to your experience sure it's well documented. Mine isn't but I have worked with a world renowned rescue agency and been trained by them and they don't agree with your view.

Dave
Just to be very clear - I have said (about a dozen times now) - I don't know how the lives saved vs unnecessary rescues balance out. I don't have a general opinion on that. I do KNOW (and this is not an opinion) that both happen (the second has happened to me and its not an opinion its a fact). That's all I have been trying to say, there is a double edged sword. I don't know how sharp each edge is.

So, on more pleasant subjects what rescue agency did you work with, in what context, what training did they give you and what is their opinion about rafts and epirbs? I suspect they would like sailors to get more training with both?

I happen to be on the USSailing Safety at Sea committee (which provides input to the racing Cat 1 regulations) and have quite a bit of contact with the USCG. Neither had given much thought to the second edge of the sword until I mentioned it
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Old 26-04-2011, 13:20   #244
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

I have no wish to blow my own trumpet, nor can my current involvement with them be used to dicuss my past training. so youll have to accept it.

The issue however you debate is the same as "angels on the head of a pin" debate. an amusing though irelevant one based on subposition and lack of fact.

What we do know

(a) Certainly the rescue agency i was involved with, regarded the provision of safety or rescue equipment as a benefit

(b) They didnt beleive that its existence "dumbed down" the situation

(c) They would prefer to make 10 trivial "rescues" on the basis that the 11nt was worth everything.

(d) THey ( and I) would point to lack of training, a increase in personal wealth, and the general increase in the boats inate technical ability to lull people into situations where rescue is required rather then the mental over reliance on suposed safety equiopment.

(e) They would point to the involvement in sailing of people with little appreciation of the sea as a significant factor.


(f) They and I would contend that the existence of safety equipment in itself is not a statisically relevent factor in generating calls for help.


We live in a " welfare" world, one where public money is spent ( for good or bad) on the protection of people from harm self or otherwise inflicted, We try not to let people ( often by their own hand) become homeless or not get medication and we ( as a society) try dilligently to educate them etc , even when its obvious they dont want to.

Rescue at sea is no differnt, There was a time when loss of life in commercial sailing was an accepted part of the industry, Today we ( in general) do not accept that casual loss of life is to be expected ( even if self generated). They same thinking applies to sea based rescue. Enormous and often increedible amounts of man-power, heroism and money are expended to rescue people from themselves. I for one wouldnt have it any other way


All thinking people accept that safety is a "mindset" not a kit bag of equipment, but THAT in now way justifies the opposite thinking, that safety could be "advanced" by restricting such equipment.
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Old 26-04-2011, 13:30   #245
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

Just as a side note - my (very unoffical reading of) the USCG's priorities are :

#1 to get everyone wearing life jackets.

There is a recent development here that is somewhat paradoxical for offshore sailors. Which is that they have given inflatable's type approval equal to non-inflatables, except NOT for inflatables with built in harnesses (which they have given a different rating). They have done this because the consider the harnesses make the devices more complex and more likely to be put on incorrectly. That's paradox able for offshore sailors because for us the harness is arguable the more important component.

#2 to get people to hook up the dsc vhf to their gps, so when they push the red button a position is sent. That's their communication priority.

#3 there has been a long running debate about whether to pursue alcohol usage or not. One camp argues that the data says it is a significant factor and the other camp using the same data says its not.

These are where they see the biggest leverage to improve boater safety.

Back to the thread - I am curious how you feel about parachutes under the seats on passenger planes. Do you think that could only increase safety - or do see any possibility that introducing that equipment might allow the possibility of an additional bad outcome (a passenger panicking and trying to open a door and jumping out)?
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Old 26-04-2011, 13:48   #246
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

I cannot comment on the priorities of the USCG, coming from this side of the atlantic , the current "problems " over DSC are amusing , we had them 10 years ago. But then we have madatory VHF training and now DSC mis-alerts are a declining problem.

Quote:
Back to the thread - I am curious how you feel about parachutes under the seats on passenger planes. Do you think that could only increase safety - or do see any possibility that introducing that equipment might allow the possibility of an additional bad outcome (a passenger panicking and trying to open a door and jumping out)?
Evans , really this is a high school debating tatic that a loosing side attempts, bring the argument to a hypothetically ridiculous point in an attempt to justfy their original point.

Parachutes are not considered for un trained cilivians, because they are a complex, dangerous and require significant training. Equally the procedures involved in exiting a high attitude pressured plane remove it from comtemplation.

Ill say it again, while I personally dont see the existence of life saving equiopment as a statistical important factor in generating rescues. It matters not

Recue agencies prefer to react then not

Boaters who receive formal training, such as VHF, or RYA etc, are encourage to contact the rescue agencies earlier rather then later.

10 trivial recuses , 100 trivial rescue , whatever justifies a life saved.

Does the provision of life saving ( or potential life saving) equiopment ( or services) help save lives, manifestly YES,

Does such reliance leave to irresponsible behaviour or trivial rescues: Possibly but no facts exist.

Hence the greater good is served.
to quote the daleks
" resistance is futile"
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Old 26-04-2011, 13:50   #247
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pirate Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

Ok guys... quit the who can piss highest up the wall...
Personal 1st hand experience as I was closely linked with the RNLI... my mate was the co-ordinator for Weymouth/Poole...
Theres a lot of needless call outs... today the CG will put out calls for vessels in the vicinity to assist.. but back in the '80's they'd charge out regardless.. they're all volunteers who exist to save lives...
As for sailing offshore... I do it at my own risk... I f*#k up I die... a fact I accept happily... trouble is many don't or won't...
Regarding lost rudders mid Atlantic and abandoning otherwise good boats... well all I can say is "dumb b*#*ards"... if your going to do something like that have a slightest clue as to what can go wrong and set up a fix.. its not that hard to jury rig... trouble is there's a lot of folk out there who think....
"Man... I've done the ICW/Sth coast of UK... the worlds my oyster".... fine... your in VHF of help... bit like the AA/RAC/Towboat US.... its not that simple folks...
GET A BLUDI BRAIN
I've done salvage and rescued a few boats in the past.... 8 times outa 10 it could have been resolved by the skipper/crew.... but often when **** hits the fan the brain goes outa the window...
'School of Hard Knocks Sailor' as someone on here once labeled me... aint got the $'s to buy my way outa SH*T....
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Old 26-04-2011, 13:56   #248
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

It matters not boatman, Society doesnt not accept what you say. Thats why we have a worldwide SAR system, lots of techie stuff to help save our stupid asses. you and I and evans can have a most amusing argument, but its hot air, the world acts otherwise.

WHat you decide personally to do , is a function of your own thinking and what the powers that be decide to allow you to do. Thes the reality. Lots of countries would fine their citizens if they acted on your beliefs.


Great stuff all this "bear grylis" stuff, makes great TV, most people prefer to be rescued and they want a modern civilised state to do so ( and their taxes or donations fund ot accordingly)
Dave
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Old 26-04-2011, 14:10   #249
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pirate Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
It matters not boatman, Society doesnt not accept what you say. Thats why we have a worldwide SAR system, lots of techie stuff to help save our stupid asses. you and I and evans can have a most amusing argument, but its hot air, the world acts otherwise.

WHat you decide personally to do , is a function of your own thinking and what the powers that be decide to allow you to do.Dave
Dave... you and I have butted heads before now on a few things... heres another one...
In all my life the 'Powers that Be' have had little or no influence on what I can and cannot do... I go where I want and when I want... do what I want when I want.... comes of being a end of era 'Colonial'
I'm an arrogant son of a bitch who does what folks say I should not... you can belive that or not but your mind set will stop you doing/going many places I'll enjoy... life/people are like that...
There's always folk who tell me how to live... usually they 'live' smaller...
My people made the rules for others to follow.... rule makers are exempt from rools....
We just point a finger.... the middle one..
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Old 26-04-2011, 14:55   #250
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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In all my life the 'Powers that Be' have had little or no influence on what I can and cannot do... I go where I want and when I want... do what I want when I want.... comes of being a end of era 'Colonial'
Well there was a time as my grandfather used to say, when all the world that mattered was coloured red.

Unfortuntely Boatman I bet you carry a passport, a thing even my uncle in the forces rarely needed, not to mention my grandfather.

Its unfortunately true that today, civilised society "gives" you an illusion of freedom of choice. That illusion can be whipped away at a moments notice and frequently has to be re-established at the point of a gun.

Quote:
My people made the rules for others to follow.... rule makers are exempt from rools...
its always good to remember and cherish your past, its foolish to live in it



I like you, feel free to do as I choose, The difference is, I know whose letting me do it and who isnt, you merely chose to ignore reality. ( but the light at the end of a tunnel is a train you know)

PS , if you have ever been at the receiving end of some incorrrect "law enforcement", you will quickly realise how fragile your freedoms really are
Dave
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Old 26-04-2011, 15:05   #251
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pirate Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Well there was a time as my grandfather used to say, when all the world that mattered was coloured red.

Unfortuntely Boatman I bet you carry a passport, a thing even my uncle in the forces rarely needed, not to mention my grandfather.

Its unfortunately true that today, civilised society "gives" you an illusion of freedom of choice. That illusion can be whipped away at a moments notice and frequently has to be re-established at the point of a gun.

I like you, feel free to do as I choose, The difference is, I know whose letting me do it and who isnt, you merely chose to ignore reality. ( but the light at the end of a tunnel is a train you know)

PS , if you have ever been at the receiving end of some incorrrect "law enforcement", you will quickly realise how fragile your freedoms really are
Dave
Dya mean like walking through Brixton at 3am and being hauled in by the police and slapped around coz they need to fit someone up for a breakin....
whats so different in that from being mugged by a few youths who want to top up their wallets with mine....
its just another gang of dorks, just ones 'legal ?' and the other not...
Your freedoms relative to the strength of your arm.... or theirs... nothings changed in over 10,000yrs mate...
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Old 26-04-2011, 16:01   #252
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

i use no epirb nor life boat--i figger my spot, when and if i use it,is good enough-- i have to have passport for in case i decide to go anywhere..LOL...as i am.... and i have stuff i can use for liferaft stuff--lol--i figger anyone demanding i have either epirb or liferaft, can buy it for me. and, NO< I WONT USE IT......
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Old 26-04-2011, 16:43   #253
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts Ever Save Lives ?

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Conditions often exist where remaining on a probably buoyant boat are impossible. Simply because a boat remains afloat does not mean you could survive in it.
Example please.
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Old 26-04-2011, 16:53   #254
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I once had a discussion with a fastnet survivor the boat was dismasted and rolled several times the inside was a missile range they decided to use the raft

Boat remained afloat

Dave
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Old 26-04-2011, 16:55   #255
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Zeehag,

I am an admitted rookie when it comes to large boat cruising. Boat I am extremely competent at small sail/human powered cruising and racing. Admittedly ACR has sponsored me. Small boat racers are required to carry SPOT devices so that race officials and "spectators" can watch the event. Last year 21 days into a one month canoe-sail race my SPOT died. I used my cell to call their customer service. They kindly offered to send me a replacement, but in the middle of rural Ga. that did not cut it. This year during a shorter 300 mile event there were numerous SPOT devices that died. I will still carry a SPOT when I get my bigger boat, but I have and will always carry a PLB.


Using a SPOT as your rescue method is way too risky. I have both visited the ACR factory and lost one that was recovered after being lost in the Gulf for a week or so(long story) I can assure you that a PLB from a good factory like ACR will work when you need it the most- in the uglies of ugly conditions. Based on real world experience a SPOT is not as robust.

Bill
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