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Old 01-04-2011, 16:37   #136
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

Airliners have liferafts, flotation devices etc. Do many people really think that they are going to save their life in the event of an accident? In most crashes they will not but occasionally they will so no I would not want them deleted.
I am in the automotive trade and most drivers do not have a clue how ABS works let alone drive differently. Many years ago a trade friend was overhauling the brake system of a thirty year old car. On completion he test drove the vehicle and was agast at the lack of braking so he had an old retired mechanic who had worked most of his life on this era vehicle come and check to see what he had done wrong. Verdict was nothing, that is as good as they ever were so does this mean we should reduce the braking efficiency of cars so everyone presumedly will drive further apart? What happens when the little child runs onto the road and you cannot pull the car up in time as you would with modern cars? Maybe we should get rid of GPS so everyone learns how to use a sextant because they will concentrate more on there navigating.
EPIRBs are in there element for off shore ocean crossing's to allow pinpoint rescue quickly with minimum resources. The liferaft will hopefully allow you to survive long enough for that rescue to take place. Most rational cruisers are not in the suicide business and while they love their boat they love life more, there are exceptions. The last sport on this earth I would try is sky diving no one could talk me into jumping out of an airplane. But in the situation where a crash was inevitable that parachute would get used.
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Old 01-04-2011, 16:49   #137
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

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... Survival 101 is about having options. We can argue all day about which options are better than others. But you are suggesting that having one less option gives you a greater chance of survival. That, we'll have to disagree on.
Indeed!
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Old 01-04-2011, 16:55   #138
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

Re: do epirbs save lives... I could be ok with;

"epirbs SIGNIFICANTLY shorten the time between the onset of a crisis and removal of the participants from the scene of the crisis..." Especially if I were one of the participants under consideration.

When the Crossroad and the J World went down on the HaHa in recent years they used their epirbs and life rafts and were rescued amazingly rapidly.

Neither crew was ever in dire straights. They had life rafts, which they used, water and emergency rations, and could have held out until another boat in the rally fleet came to find them, but it could have been a long cold wet scary wait. Instead they were lifted from yucky seas and home and dry very quickly.

Actually saving lives? In these cases, debatable. Saving time when things get hairy and scary? Definitely, and that's good enough for me.
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Old 01-04-2011, 17:11   #139
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Re: How many EPIRBS and liferafts are ever used to save lives ?

sorta like the whats good enough thread. Its perspective and circumstance. I now have both ahhh all( life raft-epirb, circumstance and perspective) always had circumstance.
A good comparison is life insurance there was little value in life insurance when I was the sole survivor. So i had none. In my early sailing the choice was buy chainplates or buy a life raft.
When the children came on board I got life insurance and when they sail with me there is an epirb and life raft. Not really a question of would I do this with out either more a choice that I am doing this with an added resposabilty. This equipment is available and not having it increases the risk. There was a risk the minute we got in the car and started driving to the boat (Seat belts) minimize the risk. An inflatable dink is crap as a life vessel unless its only your life. Then I hope you understand why this thing is a crappy last resort in bad conditions.
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Old 01-04-2011, 19:23   #140
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

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To characterise that the existence of EPIRBS and rafts as making people take more risks is ridiculous. Risk taking is a function of individuals makeup.

I've never seen or heard of sailors taking additional risks simply because they had such equipment. It is however true that such equipment reduces the need to sort ourselves out of trouble. But that really isn't a function such equipment. It's more that we have a hugely resources and expensive rescue service at our disposal.

Going to sea in the past often meant loss of life. Sailing was one of the greatest areas of fatalities. ( mining being another). In the 19th century this was accepted.

Now we do not accept trivial loss of life. We as a society makes huge efforts to rescue people from their own stupidity. I beleive it's a hallmark of a free society that you can think up new ways to kill yourself every day, but society still tries to rescue us.

EPIRBS and liferafts are merely ways on making such massive SAR undertakings easier to accomplish.

Ps to correct something said. Unregistered epirbs will cause a SAR event. They are never ignored.

Dave

To bring up Malcomb Gladwell again.................

That is most probably not true.

But like I alluded to earlier, I have read a lot of his stuff and my mind is blown. Because many of the things we think are causes, effects, influences, etc are simply not what we think, no matter what the current poplar opinion is. The old "entitled to opinion but not the facts" sort of thing.


WOW!
I just answered to post 84 without realizing there was another three pages where someone was going to say the same thing I was........sorry.

I'll go back to the pages I have missed but I am pretty sure there are going to be some hot buttons pushed.

I'll catch up if I can...
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Old 01-04-2011, 19:40   #141
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

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The radio is capable "calling 911" only if you are in radio range of a responder. The EPIRB is satellite-based and effectively global, which allows people to carry with them the 911-mentality out on the open seas well beyond the range of VHF and coastal rescue resources.
In the interest of brevity, I was using "radio" in the generic sense. These days many (though certainly not all) long distance cruisers carrry ssb or sat phone. If you have any comms with shore or another vessel (whether vhf, ssb, sat phone, carrier pidgeon...whatever) and a gps, then you have the ability to summon nautical 911. While there are no guarantees, there are some rescue resources available well beyond coastal regions (as per Abby Sutherland, or the MS Explorer off Antarctica). An EPIRB is just a more sophisticated way of calling "Mayday".
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Old 01-04-2011, 19:54   #142
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

Neither SSB or Sat phone will work well floating in the water or sinking. EPIRB designed to float and will continue to send out signal for some time even if the crew are disabled.
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Old 01-04-2011, 20:09   #143
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

If you spend too much money on emergency devices you will increase the chances of needing them. Assuming a finite budget, which most people have, it may be better to put the money into the boat. I'd rather replace dubious rigging than buy a life raft if it is either/or.
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Old 01-04-2011, 20:12   #144
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

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Neither SSB or Sat phone will work well floating in the water or sinking. EPIRB designed to float and will continue to send out signal for some time even if the crew are disabled.
I did not argue that an EPIRB isn't a more reliable means of calling for help. However, over the years many sailors have succesfully sent a Mayday moments before the boat sank. I just don't see that an EPIRB is in principle any different from any other means of calling for assistance.

If you are calling for help.... then you are calling for help.
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Old 01-04-2011, 20:25   #145
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

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So, thanks. Now I'll go off and try to figure out what to do with the information.



-Sven
When your mind is blown it is even harder to think that you are thinking rationally even if you are sure. Add an emergency and then try to think analytically - fugedaboudit.

Training = results without thinking.

Submariners might chime in.
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:19   #146
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

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I did not argue that an EPIRB isn't a more reliable means of calling for help. However, over the years many sailors have succesfully sent a Mayday moments before the boat sank. I just don't see that an EPIRB is in principle any different from any other means of calling for assistance.

If you are calling for help.... then you are calling for help.
Yes, your point is well taken, the EPIRB doesn't fundamentally provide some new capability that wasn't previously available, it just enhances that capability.

In the discussion that followed the rescue of Ken Barnes -- the Californian who was attempting a single-handed non-stop around-the-world voyage -- off the coast of Chile back in 2007, Evans challenged respondents to think of other single-handers in similar dire straits (dismasted, etc...) who had the communications capability to call for rescue but who did not do so, instead managing to rescue themselves. Very very few examples.

(Evans, I know you know, but here's a recent example for your challenge: Alessandro Di Benedetto! Jeanne Socrates didn't really call for rescue either, and ultimately did effect her own self-rescue as I recall)
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:39   #147
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

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Alessandro Di Benedetto! Jeanne Socrates didn't really call for rescue either, and ultimately did effect her own self-rescue as I recall)
Alessandro is a hero and role model! He sets a terrific example of seamanship and self-reliance. And a nice guy to boot! We spent quite a bit of time with him in San Francisco after his pacific crossing record.

Beth and I have been trading e-mails with Jeanne the past couple weeks about heavy weather tactics. She did make some sort of call for help - a fishing trawler came out and stood by her (and accidentally cut off her series drogue). She did eventually 'self-rescue' but ultimately falls a bit short of meeting my challenge.
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:51   #148
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

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She did make some sort of call for help - a fishing trawler came out and stood by...
I was never all that clear on the details; the report I read said that she had informed the authorities of her situation, but it wasn't clear whether she had actually requested rescue...

But yeah, Alessandro is a hero and role model!

Regards,

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Old 02-04-2011, 05:58   #149
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

Despite my earlier post - I don't actually care what other people do. Ride your motorcycle without a seatbelt, drive a car without a crash helmet or go to sea armed with wishful thinking and a comfort blanket....all the same to me - not my problem

Do what "you" feel comfortable with.

And I don't begrudge the cost of SAR operations (nor the free Medical care ) for those who require them, even from their own shortsightedness - those things are simply the basics of living somewhere civilised. and the capacity for "you" to do dumb things is a fundamental part of what keeps me free - rather than having to settle on just parroting slogans about freedom, uttered by people now long dead and from times long since passed.

But, as always, YMMV
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:26   #150
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Re: How Many EPIRBS and Liferafts ever Save Lives ?

No EPIRB, no Life Raft; rescued, nonetheless!

Tsunami dog rescued after 3 weeks at sea
Tsunami dog rescued after 3 weeks at sea - World - CBC News

Dog Rescued From Baltic Sea Finds Home on Polish Rescue Ship

Dog Rescued From Baltic Sea Finds Home on Polish Rescue Ship - FoxNews.com
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