How Do Couples Cruisers Fall Off Boats?

[Mike Cunningham]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Fore and Aft has since explained that he was chuckling at the irony of the juxtaposition of the cat lovers' thread, with the tragic incident. All is well, he was not chuckling at the tragedy. Horrible way to go.

Ann

Oh. My misunderstanding. I apologize.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The definition of what is a reasonable precaution is as varied as the definition of best anchor. It very much depends on the boat, crew and conditions. Prescribing a one-size-fits-all approach is only justified in laws and regulations. It doesn’t necessarily have much to do with individual reality.

Absolutely! I'd never propose that my choice of gear be legislated! In fact, I'd vigorously oppose restricting anyone's personal choices.

My gear choices reflect my sailing conditions. I sail in waters that rarely rise above temperatures in the mid 50s (F) and air temperatures that rise to the 80s on only a few days each year. I enjoy high swells and the opportunity to surf my boat and sometimes get a little "air" between sharp swells (otherwise, I'd sail in the S.F. Bay), and I don't feel I've been sailing if I don't come back soaking wet. These are definitely not everyone's preferences.

I'd be less happy with a larger boat, by the way, because they are harder to surf in short period swells. And I need a long keel because fin keeled boats don't perform as well when the hull is completely out of the water while flying off a crest. I presume that my ideal conditions are what many cruisers would define as somewhere between really bad and awfull.

One other of my gear discoveries is that ski goggles work well for keeping spray out of my eyes. Diving goggles fog up.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I always wonder about two things when I hear this type of scenario:

1. Why not stop the boat by heaving to? Takes only seconds. The MOB won't be comfortable, but he'll be on the high side and not drowning. Then move to step (2).
2. Why not attach a halyard or line to the tether and cut the jackline loose. Then either hoist (halyard) or float the MOB to better location for hauling aboard.

A properly configured jackline and tether combination won't allow a person to fully enter the water. It won't allow their waist to go past the toerail. The jackline needs to be on the centerline atop the deck. My tether is so short that I have to crawl when reaching the stem - keeping my center of gravity low. Maybe it's that "indignity" that causes people to choose overly long tethers. My tether has three carabineers with three lines of different lengths.

I cringe when I see jacklines running beside the lifelines on the deck perimeter. I have exactly that picture in mind: an incapacitated dangling person who has fallen between the lifeline and the toerail being bashed against the hull side and drug along in the water. The crew better like him! In my case, sailing single handed, my "crew" would be humiliated. My only choice would be to pull the release lanyard - committing suicide to avoid being killed.

If you don't have hardpoints for jackline attachment along the centerline, attach it to the mast base and stem, and least then you'll have a proper jackline in the one place you'll need it most: the foredeck. Ideally, you'll have two jacklines beginning at the cockpit forward bulkhead (and hardpoints in the cockpit to transition from so you are never unclipped), each near the centerline, that meet in an apex at the stem, arranged such that the drag created by your legs in the water (when heeled to the toerail) will push you back aboard. That's my arrangement.

Unfortunately, many boats are rigged such that a centerline jackline can't be configured without some rigging modification. The designers expected you to trust your life to the lifelines.

In answer to question 1 above: That is exactly what the ASA teaches. But you may be surprised to learn how many cruisers with fin-keeled boats believe their boat can't heave to. Few seem to have practiced the maneuver. The Coast Guard used to routinely order a sailing vessel to: "come about and heave to!" They stopped that practice when the only reaction they got was a blank stare.

[DEAN2140]

So here are a couple of "horror" stories on SF Bay. Coming back from a race, the owner accidentally jibed, the traveler car ran to the end of the track, and the mainsheet hit my girlfriend knocking her head into the aluminum toe rail. We called the Coast Guard and they contacted a ferry that had a doctor on board. He was brought to our boat as we headed to Richmond and an ambulance. She recovered (though she married someone else).

I was racing on my Alerion Express 28 about 10 years ago, sailing wing 'n wing when another Alerion lost control of his boat and collided with my bow. His mainsail, which was full out on the starboard side, jibed and hit me in the back of the head. I woke up in SF General Hospital. I had double vision for a few weeks but I recovered with a couple of Botox shots in the eyeball.

Still sailing at 77.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

A properly configured jackline and tether combination won't allow a person to fully enter the water. It won't allow their waist to go past the toerail. The jackline needs to be on the centerline atop the deck. My tether is so short that I have to crawl when reaching the stem - keeping my center of gravity low. Maybe it's that "indignity" that causes people to choose overly long tethers. My tether has three carabineers with three lines of different lengths.

I cringe when I see jacklines running beside the lifelines on the deck perimeter. I have exactly that picture in mind: an incapacitated dangling person who has fallen between the lifeline and the toerail being bashed against the hull side and drug along in the water. The crew better like him! In my case, sailing single handed, my "crew" would be humiliated. My only choice would be to pull the release lanyard - committing suicide to avoid being killed.

If you don't have hardpoints for jackline attachment along the centerline, attach it to the mast base and stem, and least then you'll have a proper jackline in the one place you'll need it most: the foredeck. Ideally, you'll have two jacklines beginning at the cockpit forward bulkhead (and hardpoints in the cockpit to transition from so you are never unclipped), each near the centerline, that meet in an apex at the stem, arranged such that the drag created by your legs in the water (when heeled to the toerail) will push you back aboard. That's my arrangement.

Unfortunately, many boats are rigged such that a centerline jackline can't be configured without some rigging modification. The designers expected you to trust your life to the lifelines.

In answer to question 1 above: That is exactly what the ASA teaches. But you may be surprised to learn how many cruisers with fin-keeled boats believe their boat can't heave to. Few seem to have practiced the maneuver. The Coast Guard used to routinely order a sailing vessel to: "come about and heave to!" They stopped that practice when the only reaction they got was a blank stare.

I think you will find that at least 90% of the MOBs go off the lee side, which means a jackline near the windward rail keeps them farther from the water. People seldom slide uphill. My feeling is that the centerline jackline mantra is new internet wisdom and I disagree with it. If you want to add hard points and a center line, that's good.

I have always felt that running jacklines from bow cleat to stern cleat is wrong. They should end ~ 4 feet aft, which to some extent, agrees with your reasoning (it brings them in some distance). There is no reason for them to be on the far side deck; at the very least, they should hug the cabin trunk or perhaps run on top of it.

Yes, clipping short is smart, but this thread is about what happens after they fall off on a couples boat. Couples MOB recovery..

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I think you will find that at least 90% of the MOBs go off the lee side, which means a jackline near the windward rail keeps them farther from the water. People seldom slide uphill. My feeling is that the centerline jackline mantra is new internet wisdom and I disagree with it. If you want to add hard points and a center line, that's good.

But I don't want to not fall overboard 9/10 times ... I demand 10/10.

Sometimes I want to go forward on the lee side, and it would be nice to feel secure doing that without tacking ... sometimes downwind the boat is rolling, so I'm on the high-low-high-low side. Sometimes the boat is on a level keel and a big passing wake will seemingly fling the boat both ways at once.

From my climbing background, unless my tether is taut then it has too much slack to comfortably let go with both hands ... this one hand for the boat mantra is nonsense ... almost every time I go forward the boat demands two hands to get the job done. Maybe it's a newbie thing and once I get a bit more experience I'll get more comfortable ... but for now once I can figure out how to mount one that i can clip from the cockpit, my boat is getting a centre-line jackline.

But I mostly sail solo, so I don't belong on this thread ... carry on.

[Mike OReilly]

My jacklines run port/stbd along along the cabin. They run from the forward cleat, to the cockpit cleat, which is about 10’ before the stern of the boat. I then have a series of hard points I can clip into more centreline, at the mast, or on the foredeck around the foresails.

I use the sidedeck jacklines at the permanent anchor. I can clip in before I leave the cockpit and the tether slides along the length. I then move (slowly) along the deck, switching my other tether between the centre-line hard points.

The centre line points will not allow me to fall over the side. But the side deck jackline probably would. My thinking, rightly or wrongly, is that this ensures I’m always attached to the boat, even when I have to switch the centre-line points.

I should note too, my boat has pretty wide decks, good working space around the mast, and substantial toe rails. So she’s a pretty safe working platform.

[JPA Cate]

Maybe, since it's thinwater's thread and he wants to talk about recovery, have any more of us had to recover someone from the water? So far, we have one Lifesling recovery, and CF member, Kenomac, has also had one successful Lifesling recovery.

Anyone else?

What method?

Anything you'd do differently?

Ann

[a64pilot]

I was at Brunswick Landing Marina at night about midnight when someone started pounding on my boat, I came out and the old man across from us had fallen in and his wife was pounding on my boat.
We had a Hell of a time getting him out, I grabbed my Life-sling and that kept him afloat, Brunswick Firemen showed up and we winched him aboard, which I was afraid to do as that thin line could hurt him. He had a Medical problem and didn’t have full use of his legs.

But several grown men had a heck of a time getting him aboard, in a Marina. It would have been a hopeless cause in a seaway, he would have drowned surely.
This was an old wooden Trawler, the dinghy crane broke and of course we had no Halyard etc.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by DEAN2140

So here are a couple of "horror" stories on SF Bay. Coming back from a race, the owner accidentally jibed, the traveler car ran to the end of the track, and the mainsheet hit my girlfriend knocking her head into the aluminum toe rail. We called the Coast Guard and they contacted a ferry that had a doctor on board. He was brought to our boat as we headed to Richmond and an ambulance. She recovered (though she married someone else).

I was racing on my Alerion Express 28 about 10 years ago, sailing wing 'n wing when another Alerion lost control of his boat and collided with my bow. His mainsail, which was full out on the starboard side, jibed and hit me in the back of the head. I woke up in SF General Hospital. I had double vision for a few weeks but I recovered with a couple of Botox shots in the eyeball.

Still sailing at 77.

How do you feel what the outcome would have been if a helmet was being worn in both accidents?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by captmikem

Well now...
You are welcome to your opinion, but I don't think I much of it. But then when people fear leaving the cockpit they tend to rationalize their fears and actions.

Intimate knowledge of your vessel, one hand for the ship and one for yourself in my opinion is the best way to stay aboard.
I have not found the need to limit my mobility with harnesses or life vests, but then I have only sailed a few hundred thousand miles (and I dont swim).

If you are new to this, and or insecure, or just want to wear such gear then by all means wear it. But calling folks who dissagree with your limited views "idiots" just just makes people ignore what you write, even if you do have good information to pass along.

Every night at sea I take a couple turns around the deck, checking for chafe, making sure all is well, tidying up things, enjoying the night. But I am always aware one misstep, one casual glance aloft without a firm hand on something secure, and I am over the side and dead. A sobering thought that is always with me.
M

Being aware and being dead are mutually exclusive.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by captmikem

Well now...
You are welcome to your opinion, but I don't think I much of it. But then when people fear leaving the cockpit they tend to rationalize their fears and actions.

Intimate knowledge of your vessel, one hand for the ship and one for yourself in my opinion is the best way to stay aboard.
I have not found the need to limit my mobility with harnesses or life vests, but then I have only sailed a few hundred thousand miles (and I dont swim).

If you are new to this, and or insecure, or just want to wear such gear then by all means wear it. But calling folks who dissagree with your limited views "idiots" just just makes people ignore what you write, even if you do have good information to pass along.

Every night at sea I take a couple turns around the deck, checking for chafe, making sure all is well, tidying up things, enjoying the night. But I am always aware one misstep, one casual glance aloft without a firm hand on something secure, and I am over the side and dead. A sobering thought that is always with me.
M

Wow.!!! I am not alone..

[weavis]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Wow.!!! I am not alone..

But let's not forget that you said if you go over, you think it better to die quickly...

Somehow a tether would stop the event .. no?

jes sayin'

[weavis]

As a medic, the worst thing I ever hear is: "if only he/she had...."

People are free to follow their own inclinations, only....................

Never mind...

It is what it is.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by weavis

But let's not forget that you said if you go over, you think it better to die quickly...

Somehow a tether would stop the event .. no?

jes sayin'

If solo yes.. but then thats preferable to being dragged along at 5kts+ hoping the wind dies so the release of drag allows me to maybe crawl back aboard.
How dya wanna die..