Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-07-2012, 12:56   #256
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Seaduction:
Luv your poetry! I just can't understand most of it
Thanks....it is from a Gilbert & Sullivan comic opera called "Pirates of Penzance". Hilarious satire and sarcasm....a dying art that some don't understand anymore. Maj-Gen. Stanley sings it very fast....difficult to rattle that lot off slow, let alone in time and melody. Something to practise on those long night watches when there is nobody to hear you....
__________________

__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 13:16   #257
Registered User
 
capn_billl's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston,Tx
Boat: Maxum 37'
Posts: 1,587
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by storyinframes View Post
Just thought I would share these with people on CF who are cruising far and wide. this site deals with KNIFE FIGHTING. I have copied some salient points down below -

Lies about knife fighting

#1 You're going to have time to draw your own weapon
"In all the times I have been assaulted with knives, only once was I able to pull my own weapon."

#2 The absolute last thing any attacker wants to do is to fight you with equal weapons. If he was looking for a fight he wouldn't have attacked you with a weapon in the first place. And if he knows you have a knife, he is going to attack you with a bigger and better weapon to keep you from winning.

#3 As far as your attacker is concerned this is not a fight, it is an assassination. He is not going to want to stand there with you and hack it out.

#4 Personally one of the things that I really respect the Dog Brothers for doing is experimenting with mismatched weapon contests. *That* is a reality. You pull a knife and he gets a club. You pull a club and he pulls a gun. There is no fighting involved, you use the superior weapon to disable your opponent. And you do it before he does it to you.


#5 cornered?
If you ask any experienced LEO, corrections officer or mental ward orderly which they would rather face, a person who wants to fight them, or someone who will climb over them to escape, to a man they will tell you the former. They know the latter will hurt them more and be harder to defeat. That's because that person is fully committed to a course of action. Whereas a person who has allowed themselves to be "cornered" will still be of a divided heart and therefore not able to fight at full capacity. And that is exactly what it will take in order to survive such a "no win" situation that they have put themselves into.
.......
.......
.......

#13
This entire page has been dedicated to disproving this lie. The main reason it is a lie is that you cannot "fight" an armed opponent. You can survive against one and you might even be able to successfully put him down before he causes you any major damage...but, whatever you do, it must be fast, effective and brutal. If it isn't, then you will not stop him before he causes you major damage.

You cannot stand there and engage in a long, drawn out contest with an armed opponent. If you try to do so, you will lose. It is not a matter of if, but of when.
All of these excellent points,

Rule #1 never bring a knife to a gunfight.

Rule # 2 avoid both.


I read some a statistics a few years back that were real eye openers.

IN a knife "fight", When one fighter was an experienced and skilled fighter, and the other was a rank amateur. 30% both bled out, and died during fight.

IF both had survived previous fights? Both bled out and died during fight 90%.
__________________

__________________
capn_billl is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 15:27   #258
Registered User
 
storyinframes's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Mumbai
Boat: Westsail32
Posts: 256
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to storyinframes
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
All of these excellent points,


I read some a statistics a few years back that were real eye openers.

IN a knife "fight", When one fighter was an experienced and skilled fighter, and the other was a rank amateur. 30% both bled out, and died during fight.

IF both had survived previous fights? Both bled out and died during fight 90%.
thats an interesting fact, Capn Bill. thanks for sharing.
whatever the experts say in various websites the bottom line is if you are

1. good and fast - fight it (lightning fast) but chances are these attackers wont chose you because they have already done the psychological sizing before hand. they would have studied your body language, your gait, your fitness.

2. If you are not into that agile athletic fitness shape and dont have the mindset to inflict damage on your attacker - just don't aggravate the situation any further. dont provoke the attacker any further. it is better to live and fight another day.

as a footnote - what is important is mental stamina - are you as hardened as the attacker? if you chose to repel the attacker and attack him, would you be able to inflict bone crunching/ liver bursting attack? any half baked effort will surely get you killed in retaliation.

I always feel robbers have very good advantages. legally, one may never realise that his self defence has gone into an attack. and prosecutors/cops will have a field day making a sample out of you. strange but true.
the more rich and educated you are, the more difficult the odds are against you.
__________________
storyinframes is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 15:49   #259
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Pneumatic spearguns the nice short ones that strap to your leg, effective against large fish, silent and cord is re-movable. No need to declare other than for fishing, ours are 2ft long overall..

Bonus is you can use them on Lobsters as well.
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 16:03   #260
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by storyinframes View Post
Just thought I would share these with people on CF who are cruising far and wide. this site deals with KNIFE FIGHTING. I have copied some salient points down below -

Lies about knife fighting
That's a very interesting website. Kinda reinforces my viewpoint (he even covers reinforcement ), as explained in my new book:-

"DOJ and the art of not being there "
(and when that fails - run away)
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 16:26   #261
Registered User
 
captainKJ's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 3rd wave passed the sea wall
Boat: private yacht always moving
Posts: 1,388
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
That's a very interesting website. Kinda reinforces my viewpoint (he even covers reinforcement ), as explained in my new book:-

"DOJ and the art of not being there "
(and when that fails - run away)

That was already brought in the monty python post,,,running away is the best avenue. just give them everything and start over.


__________________
captainKJ is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 16:30   #262
Registered User
 
captainKJ's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 3rd wave passed the sea wall
Boat: private yacht always moving
Posts: 1,388
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

260 plus post and the thread goes on and on. so far we all agree that NOBODY knows what can be done in every situation.


best bet,,,, just stay home and not worry about it. anybody got a boat they dont want,,, stay home and be safe by calling 911
__________________
captainKJ is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 16:38   #263
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
I read some a statistics a few years back that were real eye openers.

IN a knife "fight", When one fighter was an experienced and skilled fighter, and the other was a rank amateur. 30% both bled out, and died during fight.

IF both had survived previous fights? Both bled out and died during fight 90%.
LOL.

Did they do post humus interviews or set up a series of trials.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 16:41   #264
Registered User
 
micah719's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Boat: OEM, proportional
Posts: 1,439
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

__________________
Ps 139:9-10 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
micah719 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 18:40   #265
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Ive read the fight rather then flight stuff here . I still regard it as nonsense. Several have " threatened fire and brimstone " on potential attackers , others relay the run out the bedroom shouting style of home defense.

In my opinion, if you are forewarned, you can't beat a handgun, easy to deploy, reasonably accurate to about 15-20 feet, and has a nice loud bang.

I would certainly not recommend the rush about shouting ideas, works well upto the point you get knifed or shot. Your rash reaction may produce an equally rash reaction, there's a 50 % chance one of you dies , that's way to risky for me. ( this by the way is basically what happened to Sir Peter Blake , he's a hero , a dead hero. )

The key thing to remember is that, the key is that you and your loved ones come out the other side alive. So what you loose a few possessions. Unless you have an overwhelming advantage in overcoming your assailants ( because your a super ninja, you're the one holding a gun etc) your attempted " fight back" strategy is a incredibly risky response, fail and you most definitely will die. Never try at all and you may live.

To suggest surrender is cowardly is pure stupidity in the extreme. Most assailants are simple burglars , they want things not murder. If you run into the murder types they will most likely cut you down before you even get a chance. ( they are not interested in a fight. They want an assassination) in most cases passive deescalation, and a handing over of the goods is about all that's practical. Fighting someone with a gun or a knife over your camera is the dumbest thing you can do.

If you do decide to fight, you must be assured you have overwhelming advantage. Otherwise it's a fatal action. Most armed assailants do not want to murder you and tend to shoot only if you scare them.

On a boat sailing internationally, it's virtually impossible to carry firearms, especially a useful semi-automatic handgun. Secondly time after time descriptions have shown that assailants are able to enter the boat while the occupants sleep. At that point you are at a serious disadvantage.

I read the grab the gun thread with incredulity, few assailants come close enough for to to reach a gun quickly , that's human nature. Equally the strategy is massively high risk. In this incident , surrender, keep your brain working, deescalate, and seek advantage later if it presents itself. Heros die. ( your widow will love the medals) in practice fortune doesn't favour the brave, it favours the cleverest.

While I agree that automatic intruder alert system are a " good idea" I've never seen a good setup. Equally the nature of sparsely Anchored boats is that help isnt readily available. In the time your sirens and lights actually alerts someone , and even if they decide to row over , etc well you'd be robbed twice over. And good luck trying to get the maritime police to come out.

So what we are left with is really two things , vigilance and avoidance. If you find yourself in a high risk area, don't sleep , and then get out of there. I've certainly found that anywhere I found myself where I had a serious worry of intrusion, I didn't sleep anyway. Then I got out of dodge. Remember this is a hobby, a leisure activity. , you are not a marine recon unit.

Of course the , highly trained super ninjas here will disarm their assailants with a swish of their hand etc etc , by all means go ahead. ( or use the pikes shields etc techniques )

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 19:15   #266
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Ive read the fight rather then flight stuff here . I still regard it as nonsense. Several have " threatened fire and brimstone " on potential attackers , others relay the run out the bedroom shouting style of home defense.

In my opinion, if you are forewarned, you can't beat a handgun, easy to deploy, reasonably accurate to about 15-20 feet, and has a nice loud bang.

I would certainly not recommend the rush about shouting ideas, works well upto the point you get knifed or shot. Your rash reaction may produce an equally rash reaction, there's a 50 % chance one of you dies , that's way to risky for me. ( this by the way is basically what happened to Sir Peter Blake , he's a hero , a dead hero. )

The key thing to remember is that, the key is that you and your loved ones come out the other side alive. So what you loose a few possessions. Unless you have an overwhelming advantage in overcoming your assailants ( because your a super ninja, you're the one holding a gun etc) your attempted " fight back" strategy is a incredibly risky response, fail and you most definitely will die. Never try at all and you may live.

To suggest surrender is cowardly is pure stupidity in the extreme. Most assailants are simple burglars , they want things not murder. If you run into the murder types they will most likely cut you down before you even get a chance. ( they are not interested in a fight. They want an assassination) in most cases passive deescalation, and a handing over of the goods is about all that's practical. Fighting someone with a gun or a knife over your camera is the dumbest thing you can do.

I wonder if that's what the poor fellow in this incident was telling himself as they tied him up-they only want the camera. Then of course they raped his wife.

If you do decide to fight, you must be assured you have overwhelming advantage. Otherwise it's a fatal action. Most armed assailants do not want to murder you and tend to shoot only if you scare them.

On a boat sailing internationally, it's virtually impossible to carry firearms, especially a useful semi-automatic handgun. Secondly time after time descriptions have shown that assailants are able to enter the boat while the occupants sleep. At that point you are at a serious disadvantage.

I read the grab the gun thread with incredulity, few assailants come close enough for to to reach a gun quickly , that's human nature. Equally the strategy is massively high risk. In this incident , surrender, keep your brain working, deescalate, and seek advantage later if it presents itself. Heros die. ( your widow will love the medals) in practice fortune doesn't favour the brave, it favours the cleverest.


Clearly you have taken no close combat training. The "retention stance" has to be taught with much training because the natural instinct of most people is to hold the gun at arms length just like they've seen in the movies, or if they have a little training to use the older "Weaver" stance. This is no longer taught for cornering in tight confines like building clearing because it's much too easy to disarm someone holding a weapon in this fashion even though they are holding it in both hands. Modern self defense methods all teach the retention stance because the tactical community has learned at great expense that a pistol is vastly overrated as a weapon, a motivated assailant will get shot and probably not even notice it due to shock and adrenalin. Then they will disarm you and grapple or stab you if they are armed.

While I agree that automatic intruder alert system are a " good idea" I've never seen a good setup. Equally the nature of sparsely Anchored boats is that help isnt readily available. In the time your sirens and lights actually alerts someone , and even if they decide to row over , etc well you'd be robbed twice over. And good luck trying to get the maritime police to come out.

So what are left with really two things , vigilance and avoidance. If you find yourself in a high risk area, don't sleep , and then get out of there. I've certainly found that anywhere I found myself where I had a serious worry of intrusion, I didn't sleep anyway. Then I got out of dodge. Remember this is a hobby, a leisure activity. , your are not a marine recon unit.

Of course the , highly trained super ninjas here will disarm their assailants with a swish of their hand etc etc , by all means go ahead. ( or use the pikes shields etc techniques )

Dave
Clearly everyone has to decide where to draw the line, but as for me I'm ready to accept being shot or stabbed if it means preventing the sort of event which happened here from happening to my family. I've seen an armed assailant disarmed twice now. The natural inclination of a mugger is to stick the gun in your face. This is a terrible idea if you have any training at all. The closer you are to your opponent the harder you are to hit, Indians circling the wagon train knew this basic principle of combat. You can move your head out of the way faster than he can pull the trigger if the gun is in your face, this has been proved countless times (although obviously not if you are in bed half asleep at the time as was the case here). This is one reason why a good alarm system is important, it gives you time to wake up and react. So does a dog. Obviously you want to get some training in that sort of thing before trying to do it though. It's very easy to do here in America, there are lots of excellent courses. On our boat all the hatches lock open about 3", the companionway and pilothouse door have substantial locks, we have a large trained dog, the walk-in engine room under the pilot house has a 4" thick door which can be barred from the inside, you can shut off fuel to the engine and shut off the battery main from in there, we have over 5' of freeboard with netting in the lifelines making it more like 8' at the lowest spot. And if some crazy makes it past all that then I'm pretty sure they seriously don't mean well and have designs on my wife and two daughters, at which point I will gladly die to protect them, just like my dog would. I think the biggest risk is getting too comfortable, after all an event like this can happen anywhere at all but is hardly the norm. But you have to be prepared anyway if you don't want to take the chance of it happening to you.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 20:06   #267
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
I wonder if that's what the poor fellow in this incident was telling himself as they tied him up-they only want the camera. Then of course they raped his wife.
While this is typical hyperbole, I suspect most wives would be "happier " to be raped and have you alive then have you try the hero be dead and still they get raped.

And of course I don't have close combat firearms training I suspect few do ( it's illegal anyway where I am right now ) what I was merely saying that when presented with a gun pointing at me. I have to say in most cases the risk of action coming out on the right side of things for me is small.

I do know my firearms though. I fully agree a pistol can be a poor weapon for various reasons and most people can actually take a bullet and still carry through a defensive attack. The problem being that while you might then disarm or kill the assailant, you will most likely bleed to death a rather zero sum game.

I am not against action. But only in cases where I evaluate I have overwhelming advantage and I weigh up the outcome is advantageous to me. Outside that it's a crap shoot.

Quote:

And if some crazy makes it past all that then I'm pretty sure they seriously don't mean well and have designs on my wife and two daughters, at which point I will gladly die to protect them, just like my dog would
I think staying alive and protecting them is much better, I wasn't aware dead people could provide much protection.

No dog I know willingly offers its life, most are killed because they have no ideas of the assailants retaliatory power, you on the other hand as a human can of course make that silly mistake.

dogs are great, but one PITA to sail with internationally. The hassle is crazy.

Your setup suggests a large boat, let's confine ourselves to 40ft average sailboats. Since that's what mostly out there.
Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 20:49   #268
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I am not against action. But only in cases where I evaluate I have overwhelming advantage and I weigh up the outcome is advantageous to me. Outside that it's a crap shoot.



This is really the crux of the matter isn't it? Correctly weighing up whether or not the situation is advantageous to you or not. As always, luck favors the prepared once the decision is made and the die is cast.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 21:52   #269
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Philippines
Boat: custom 42' catamaran
Posts: 269
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

storyinframes wrote "Just thought I would share these with people on CF who are cruising far and wide. this site deals with KNIFE FIGHTING." ==> Excellent site and well worth reading. I have known most of this stuff for 30+ years and come to many of the same conclusions, but it is always good to have a review. This is why few here were advocating 'knife fighting' but rather concentrating on defense. The various alarm options are to provide one with the early warning one needs to prepare. The shield option is a cheap and easy means of defense against a knife - one that virtually no knife wielding thug in the third world has encountered; and therefore a 'style' outside their cultural norm - meaning that they have to invent new tactics on the spot under stress. Further, the bat gives better range than the average knife and can be used both in close quarters thrusting and in more open areas by swinging.

Some years ago when in my early fifties,I took a martial arts class in kickboxing and FMA (stick fighting) because I thought it might help in my medieval combat using double weapons. I was the oldest person in the class with the students in their twenties and the black belt instructor in his thirties. They did a LOT of pattern drills at which I sucked big time, and everyone looked at me with a modicum of amusement as being too old and too slow. Then the instructor showed up with 'red man' gear - dense foam armor for the head, torso, and limbs. Free fighting in armor with sticks - something I had been doing for twenty years (steel armor and bigger sticks). The instructor asked for volunteers - no one stepped up so I figured I would. Eventually the instructor selected an opponent and we geared up - at the instructors command of 'fight' I struck my opponent several times with no hesitation - while he, younger/faster/stronger, just stood there and looked at me. OK, likely luck - we restarted, same result. The instructor changed to his best student - I figured I was dead meat since he had just watched the first exchange - same result (again twice). We cycled through all the students with the instructor getting increasingly frustrated and embarrassed - they all hesitated to hit the 'old man' and they all lost the bout. The instructor geared up and i knew that I was now dead meat - so I resolved to cheat. At the 'fight' command I stepped forward into a range too close to effectively use the sticks as taught in the FMA - and I deliberately stepped on the instructor's lead foot so he couldn't step back. I then executed two quick successive 'wrap' blows that we use in SCA heavy combat that are thrown 45* to the side and wrap into the back of the head - a technique not taught in the FMA at the time. The instructor later suggested that I was not a good candidate for further participation in the class. This reinforces what the site has to say about most people not wanting to inflict damage on another person, and it reinforces the difficulty in dealing with a new style or tactics - BUT, it applies in both directions; it may be possible that you have the advantage on your home and that the intruder will have to cope with new circumstances under stressful conditions. And I agree that you always want to be better armed than your opponent - but in the real world of cruising in the third world, this is not going to happen since you are typically not allowed a firearm and the criminals don't allow this additional bit of illegality to hinder their being armed to the best of their ability.
__________________
Bruce626 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 15-07-2012, 22:15   #270
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Purely Hypothetical,

But you wake up with a gun in your face, I would assume the thief would make you get out of your bed and stand up,

As you rollover to get out of bed, your hand hits that little switch you had installed for this very moment, Its where your hand would be normally situated on the inside of the bed edge, The thief cant see it, and its only a finger movement to flick it on, It all looks natural and it does not alert the thief to what you have done,

That switch turns on the powerfull light on the mast, turning night into day, It also turns on the horn blowing 120 decibels, Constantly,

Thieves do not like stealing things in brightly lit area's, And with that horn blowing,
I would suggest that the thief would immediately head for the topside to see what is happening,

He would be definately rattled, Wondering if the police had rolled up, and his first thought would be to avoid detection, and or escape,

Knowing every eye and ear would be trained on your boat, and help is coming to you,

Giving you a moment to collect your thoughts and implement some other action to overcome or change the scenario to your advantage,

There is a lot of what ifs associated with this,

You can also have a switch to turn off the noise and just have the light on, in case you are in trouble, Like taking on water or sinking, Dragging anchors, It gives you the light to see what your doing, and summon help as well,
__________________

__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.