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Old 14-07-2012, 19:13   #241
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Yes but you really need to discover their intentions before they board you. Once they are on board their temptation is to continue, not leave.

Secondly my experience is that people ignore " calls to help" so if the intruders don't suddenly get worried by merely a bright
Iight, your gamble has failed. Equally like the bocca incident what do you do if they reach your bedside. A gun in your wifes face is a powerful argument to " turn off those alarms "

Dave

That one is simple. You board my boat uninvited, I'm setting the alarm off. I'm not stopping for a nice little chat first. Even if you're in the cabin before I realize it, it's just a button pushed, and anyone around you knows something is wrong. Including the intruder.

Basic rule for safety for women in particular, as taught to me by a police officer in a women's safety class, is you do NOT stop making noise. You do not cooperate just because a gun is pointed at you or stuck in your ribs, because if he chooses to shoot you, far better that you made enough noise that someone knew you were in trouble. Along with that, you don't ever leave with a man just because he has a gun on you.

You make all the noise you can and as big a scene as you can.

Of course, the one time I really was grabbed from behind (what prompted me to take the class) I was so stunned no sound came out. I TRIED to scream but no sound came out. Someone might try to tell me to turn off the machine, but my intent is that I'd be shouting GET OUT!!! over and over so loudly that I would not hear what he said.

In a situation like that you have nothing to lose. If he shoots you there and the alarm has gone off -- and then your neighbors hear a gun -- odds are very high that someone is going to call for help.

I can't tell anyone else what to do but it is what I would do.
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Old 14-07-2012, 20:58   #242
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Ex-Calif noted 1) "I would still argue that at 10 feet, handgun wins 99 out of 100." ==> Odd, then in the hands of the skipper of the boat being boarded, you should have a gun in your hand - perhaps one with some intimidation factor and stopping power. This is the inconsistency - in the hand of the pirate the pistol trumps everything that the hapless boat owner can do; BUT, in the hands of the skipper the pistol is nearly useless as a drunk fisherman with a knife can kill you easily from ten feet away (generally law enforcement and self defense with a firearm teach that someone with a knife who is 21' away typically poses a deadly threat despite the firearm).

Note that the use of a shield assumes that you see them coming and that they are chasing you - typically armed with a machete or knife. The shield takes up relatively little room standing on its edge and secured to a vertical surface with a quick release knot. To deploy it, one merely pushes the arm through the back strap and grasps the two parallel straps near the center - loose the retaining knot and you are good to go. If one actually knows how to use a shield properly it is NOT merely a piece of defensive equipment - it can be used offensively as well (like a boxer using the jab). A shield made from the bottom of a 55 gallon drum is around 28" in diameter and weighs about eight pounds - it hits, edge on, with some authority - especially with the weight of your body and its adrenalin behind it. With your elbow near the back edge of the shield and your hand near the center, the leading edge of the shield is around a foot in front of your hand. Just keeping the shield in guard position protects your body from roughly your nose to your belt. Having a light bat in your other hand gives much more reach than the average machete. For some reason, everyone assumes that the bat must be swung in large arcs (same with a sword) - but while this is possible if one has room (one can also choke up for really confined spaces), a hard quick thrust into the face using the big blunt end of the bat, is likely to force a knife/machete wielder to step back (and where might this put him). Not stepping back might result in an impact which will break the nose temporarily blinding the foe from the involuntary tearing and making breathing difficult. Note that one doesn't stop to admire the effect - you are in continuous attack mode with both the shield and bat going like fast pistons into any part of the intruder that can be reached - and you are yelling with every outward push (forces you to breathe) which alerts any sleeping neighbors: "Get [slam with the bat] - inhale - Off [slam with the shield, taking advantage of your body rotation in recovering the bat] - inhale - My [slam with the bat, taking advantage of your body rotation in recovering the shield] - inhale - Boat [slam with the shield as before] - inhale - repeat until the foe is down or in the water. If there is room to swing the bat (some of us have catamarans) you have a choice of targets - smash the side of the knee joint to slow them down (nonlethal); smash either collar bone to stop arm (knife/machete) movement (also nonlethal); or smash the temple (likely lethal). Don't stop - you need to put the Energizer Bunny to shame. Try to stay alert to a wider area as the tendency is to get tunnel vision focused on your immediate foe - if there are more than one, step over the body of the first and keep going. If you are cut, you will NOT feel pain (until later if you live) - you will likely not even know if you have been cut. Visualize and practice - if the time ever comes when you need to act, then you will act as you have practiced - with no hesitation and no thinking about the ethics or doing a quick cost/gain analysis - that is what gets one killed.

2) "It seems inconsistent to argue the innacuracy of a handgun at 50 meters then talk about using a boat hook at 10 feet." ==> Why? The pirate approach we were discussing starts from a distance, at somewhere between 50 an 10 meters it is likely an armed pirate is going to brandish and/or fire the weapon in order to intimidate you into stopping and helping them board your vessel. Ignore them and continue to flee, hiding as much as possible (one could even set the autopilot and go below). The boat hook is to be used when the intruder actually tries to board. In my area, the Philippines and SE Asia generally, most of the local boats are very narrow painted plywood open boats with bamboo outriggers (amas) connected (i.e. lashed) to cross poles (akas) which are lashed to the boat. They are typically powered by a small gasoline engine which moves them surprisingly fast. The problem for the pirate is how to approach a larger vessel to board: approach from the front and get run down; approach from the beam - 1) bow on, risking collision and throwing the pirate attempting to board off the boat, or get close enough for the pirate to jump from the bow of their boat to the (high) side of yours and get over the side rails; 2) parallel approach, but now the ama is in the way and the nimble pirate is going to have to run out a single or perhaps double wet bamboo aka and jump from the ama to the side of your boat; 3) or the most likely, a stern chase coming up to the stern of your boat and jumping from the bow of his boat to the transom of yours. For a grown man to stand on the bow of one of these boats is to risk swamping it if moving at any kind of speed into any kind of swell - and balancing there is a nontrivial task, especially with a loaded gun in their hand. I would therefore expect that at some point the boarding pirate will put the loaded handgun 'securely' in the band of his shorts, climb out onto the bow of his pamboat, and try to jump to one of my rear steps. IF he makes it, he will likely be holding on and trying to stand up while at the same time trying to re-grasp his pistol. It is at this point in time that I - with two feet solidly planted in my spacious cockpit - expect to forcefully slam him with a thrust to the upper torso, into the water. Perhaps because I am an optimist, I don't see a 99% success rate in using a pistol under these circumstances - nor do I see why anyone else couldn't do this as well.

And if this didn't work, there are still other options.

Note that even in your preferred (worst case) scenario - the intruder surprises you while you are asleep and puts his pistol to your head. All is not lost. Thugs like to get close because they think that close means that they can't miss - this is wrong. While impressive and easy to use, a pistol can only inflict damage in the direction the barrel is pointing. If you can gain control of the barrel and get it pointed away from you (best if turned and pointed at the holder), the threat goes way down. This is your focus - to get two hands on the gun and turn it - your two hands plus the leverage from grasping the barrel makes this easier than you (or he) might think. Yes, there is risk but by watching for an appropriate opportunity where the gun is even slightly off target (boat movement?), you can twist out of the way and gain control of the direction the barrel is pointing - and with practice you can do this faster than he can decide to pull the trigger. The goal is NOT to take the gun from his hand, just to control the direction it is pointing. The thug will likely already have his finger on the trigger and if you can control the gun long enough to point it into his torso, all you need do then is push a finger into the trigger guard. Two fingers in there will discharge the gun - hopefully into his torso, and thus changing the dynamics of the situation. Clearly you don't have a lot of time since once the surprise is gone he will try to regain control of the gun - not that easy. If it is a revolver, it will likely only fire the one shot while two fingers are inside the trigger guard, if it is a semiautomatic pistol you might be able to get it to fire more than once. Also, if the pistol has an exposed hammer, putting a finger or thumb web between the hammer and the firing pin will likely prevent the gun from firing (yes, it hurts and you have to press hard in and resist the instinctive jerk away). If this seems too risky, ask yourself why a pirate would leave a witness alive when it will be so easy to kill you and leave no witnesses - after all they have just threatened to kill you. I, for one, don't subscribe to the 'nice' pirate theory.
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Old 15-07-2012, 02:54   #243
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

I have refrained from taking much part in this thread but after 17 pages its time to chime in again!

The following while not sailing related, is pertinent to many posts to date.

I have had the experience of a unexpected house intruder and FWIW, this was my untrained, unpremeditated response.

I woke up around 2am to see a person moving into our bedroom through the open doors of the room. The only thing I clearly remember was that he was carrying a small torch and I think it was the light that woke me. I exploded out of the bed without any conscious thought screaming obscenities very very very loudly. In principle I was un-politely requesting that he leave right away!

Luckily for us, he took this advice and took off. I slammed the bedroom door shut (almost breaking it) and was dialling 000 within less than 5 seconds of waking. The first conscious thought I had was that I noticed how calm and clearly I was advising the police of name, address and situation. My partner woke up as I slamming the door and turned to jelly with fright.

The main point of this story was that my reaction was totally automatic. I did not think any of it out at all. In fact, I have no idea what I would have done if I had time to think. I am sure we were lucky, if the intruder had stood his ground, we would have come off second best by far. I don't know if he was armed or not but I have since assumed he wasn't. In this instance, he chose to flee.

I have no weapons (of any sort) in the house; I have no training in defence of any sort and would lose any fight I might ever get into. While I am very familiar with sporting firearms and have fired thousands of rounds, I haven't owned any firearm for 20 years.

The rest of the story is not important but for the sake of completeness, I can say the police arrived 6 or 7 mins later (they were just passing through the area), intruder was never found; nothing was stolen as unusually for us, all the keys, bags, phones, laptops etc were in our bedroom that night!

FWIW.
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Old 15-07-2012, 03:16   #244
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

He had the adrenalin pumping, he had the fight or flight options in his brain, you probably scared the living crap out of him.

If he had of assaulted you he knew he would then be recognised, he obviously was a thief and not a brawler and he would have weighed up there were two of you.

Years ago a friend advised me in situations such as this, he said 'the advantage goes to the one who wields the most fear' in this case it was you. You had no other weapon to use and you used it effectively, well done.

Bet his heart nearly burst!!!!
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Old 15-07-2012, 03:59   #245
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Originally Posted by goboatingnow
Yes but you really need to discover their intentions before they board you. Once they are on board their temptation is to continue, not leave.


I think you are right. As an intruder is boarding you vessel, ask him what his intentions are. Only then can you make an educated decision on what to do. Dont worry, the intruder will not lie to you.

Not sure how to handle this at night, but if an intruder was standing over your bed with a knife you might still have time to ask him what his intentions are.

Not sure what you would do after you found out but at least you would know what his intentions are.
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Old 15-07-2012, 04:14   #246
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Wotname wrote "I have no weapons (of any sort) in the house; I have no training in defence of any sort and would lose any fight I might ever get into." ==> But you have good aggressive instincts and I think a modicum of training and forethought would make you more effective should you not confront a sneak thief but perhaps a burgler. A lot of simple things can be done that don't require a lot of time, training, or cost. For example, a simple chain across the door (an eye lag bolt into the knob side frame and an equally sturdy hook screwed into the hinge side frame) will help prevent entry with doors, most of which, open inward. Simple and easy to unlock if you need to get out in a hurry. Another easy thing is a thorny bush under every window.

Some thought and/or training will give you more situational awareness. For example, thinking that you have no weapons in the house - unless you live in an empty house, the typical house is full of items that might be used as effective weapons: your kitchen is likely full of knives, some quite large; you may have sporting equipment such as a cricket/baseball bat, golf clubs, and such - all effective improvised weapons; if you have a fireplace, the 'poker' is a superb weapon; your garage likely contains a variety of tools that can inflict serious damage - hammers, large screw drivers, large wrenches; the laundry contains bleach; closets might have things with wooden or metal rods - the heavy rod your hangers are on, brooms, rakes, hoes and such; your gardening shed might have a variety of items like a small pickaxe or shovel and various kinds of weeding implements - perhaps a sickle or its Asian counterpart a kama; your kitchen or bathroom likely has cleaning supplies in squeeze bottles - ammonia cleaner or vinegar come to mind. I could go on but likely you get the idea. Many of these items need only be placed where they can more easily be reached. Similar items are likely found in your car and in your boat. Pick something that you like and insure that it is readily at hand - and a modicum of visualization and practice doesn't hurt.

Close calls are a warning - heed them and prepare for the future.
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Old 15-07-2012, 04:15   #247
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
That one is simple. You board my boat uninvited, I'm setting the alarm off. I'm not stopping for a nice little chat first. Even if you're in the cabin before I realize it, it's just a button pushed, and anyone around you knows something is wrong. Including the intruder.
You might not wake up. I didn't. Not only did they wander through the boat but got the dinghy off the deck and back into the water (they swam out) without waking me. Am I'm not a particularly heavy sleeper, but had just done quite a hard solo passage.
I think for an alarm to be really useful it has to go off as someone is getting onto the boat. Not sure exactly how you would do that but there's always a way.
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Old 15-07-2012, 05:00   #248
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

conachair wrote "I think for an alarm to be really useful it has to go off as someone is getting onto the boat. Not sure exactly how you would do that but there's always a way." ==> I have thought about this as well:

1) use a pressure switch under mats at any points of ingress that might be used - boats are often limited in how one can easily and quietly get aboard; and use a relay to lock the current on once tripped;

2) I recently purchased two motion sensor alarms for about $5 each to experiment with - they come with cute little remotes so you can come and go;

3) I have considered making some inexpensive spring contact switches:

a) start with a quality wood or plastic clothes pin and drill a hole through the part that holds clothes to the line, and through one of the handles;
b) put a small pan-head (Phillips?) through the paired holes and secure with a washer and nut on the outside;
c) attach wires for an appropriate power source using the nuts;
d) make a wood or plastic wedge that will keep the pan-heads apart and insert a small eye-screw;
e) mount the clothes pin in some unobtrusive and secure location, perhaps using a small hole in a lockable locker;
f) using an appropriate length of monofilament line, secure the line to the wedge and place the wedge in the mouth of the clothes pin;
g) tie or clip the other end of the line to a suitable location such that the trip line covers the ingress point at an appropriate height;
h) energize the circuit with an inside switch;
i) walking on or through the line pulls the wedge from between the contacts - your lights, alarm, camera/webcam, cell, etc. now function.

4) there are numerous other ways to do this limited only by your imagination and budget.
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Old 15-07-2012, 05:52   #249
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Originally Posted by Bruce626 View Post
, camera/webcam, cell, etc. now function.
.
A webcam seems a good idea - maybe coupled with a pre-recorded (local lingo) voice advising that a) they have already been recorded and b) the images have already been downloaded ashore via the internet (no point them thinking that there is a VHS tape etc down below that they now need to collect!).


Personally I favour a group of Cruisers banding together into a shore raiding party and going after the Pirate King himself .
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Old 15-07-2012, 06:24   #250
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Personally I favour a group of Cruisers banding together into a shore raiding party and going after the Pirate King himself .
Intelligence reports indicate this person is lurking somewhere near Penzance, and has been reported to be acting suspiciously around girl's finishing schools, and is running a sham charity for disadvantaged homeless children.

Can I be the Major General?

Iiiiiiii.....am the very model of a Modern Major-General,
I have information vegetable animal and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
Iím very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem Iím teeming with a lot oí news Ė
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.

Iím very good at integral and differential calculus;
I know the scientific names of beings animalculous:
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

I know our mythic history, King Arthurís and Sir Caradocís;
I answer hard acrostics, Iíve a pretty taste for paradox,
I quote in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus,
In conics I can floor peculiarities parabolous;
I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies,
I know the croaking chorus from the Frogs of Aristophanes!
Then I can hum a fugue of which Iíve heard the musicís din afore,
And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore.

Then I can write a washing bill in Babylonic cuneiform,
And tell you every detail of Caractacusís uniform:
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

In fact, when I know what is meant by "mamelonĒ and ďravelinĒ,
When I can tell at sight a Mauser rifle from a javelin,
When such affairs as sorties and surprises Iím more wary at,
And when I know precisely what is meant by ďcommissariatĒ,
When I have learnt what progress has been made in modern gunnery,
When I know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery;
In short, when Iíve a smattering of elemental strategy,
Youíll say a better Major-General has never sat a gee.

For my military knowledge, though Iím plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century;
But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

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Old 15-07-2012, 07:10   #251
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

on matters animal, vegetable and mineral I am more on the Bishop of Bath and Wells end of the spectrum . (Blackadder).
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Old 15-07-2012, 07:24   #252
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
Intelligence reports indicate this person is lurking somewhere near Penzance, and has been reported to be acting suspiciously around girl's finishing schools, and is running a sham charity for disadvantaged homeless children.

Can I be the Major General?

Iiiiiiii.....am the very model of a Modern Major-General,
I have information vegetable animal and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
Iím very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem Iím teeming with a lot oí news Ė
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.

Iím very good at integral and differential calculus;
I know the scientific names of beings animalculous:
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

I know our mythic history, King Arthurís and Sir Caradocís;
I answer hard acrostics, Iíve a pretty taste for paradox,
I quote in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus,
In conics I can floor peculiarities parabolous;
I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies,
I know the croaking chorus from the Frogs of Aristophanes!
Then I can hum a fugue of which Iíve heard the musicís din afore,
And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore.

Then I can write a washing bill in Babylonic cuneiform,
And tell you every detail of Caractacusís uniform:
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

In fact, when I know what is meant by "mamelonĒ and ďravelinĒ,
When I can tell at sight a Mauser rifle from a javelin,
When such affairs as sorties and surprises Iím more wary at,
And when I know precisely what is meant by ďcommissariatĒ,
When I have learnt what progress has been made in modern gunnery,
When I know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery;
In short, when Iíve a smattering of elemental strategy,
Youíll say a better Major-General has never sat a gee.

For my military knowledge, though Iím plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century;
But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

Luv your poetry! I just can't understand most of it.
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Old 15-07-2012, 11:24   #253
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Just thought I would share these with people on CF who are cruising far and wide. this site deals with KNIFE FIGHTING. I have copied some salient points down below -

Lies about knife fighting

#1 You're going to have time to draw your own weapon
"In all the times I have been assaulted with knives, only once was I able to pull my own weapon."

#2 The absolute last thing any attacker wants to do is to fight you with equal weapons. If he was looking for a fight he wouldn't have attacked you with a weapon in the first place. And if he knows you have a knife, he is going to attack you with a bigger and better weapon to keep you from winning.

#3 As far as your attacker is concerned this is not a fight, it is an assassination. He is not going to want to stand there with you and hack it out.

#4 Personally one of the things that I really respect the Dog Brothers for doing is experimenting with mismatched weapon contests. *That* is a reality. You pull a knife and he gets a club. You pull a club and he pulls a gun. There is no fighting involved, you use the superior weapon to disable your opponent. And you do it before he does it to you.


#5 cornered?
If you ask any experienced LEO, corrections officer or mental ward orderly which they would rather face, a person who wants to fight them, or someone who will climb over them to escape, to a man they will tell you the former. They know the latter will hurt them more and be harder to defeat. That's because that person is fully committed to a course of action. Whereas a person who has allowed themselves to be "cornered" will still be of a divided heart and therefore not able to fight at full capacity. And that is exactly what it will take in order to survive such a "no win" situation that they have put themselves into.
.......
.......
.......

#13
This entire page has been dedicated to disproving this lie. The main reason it is a lie is that you cannot "fight" an armed opponent. You can survive against one and you might even be able to successfully put him down before he causes you any major damage...but, whatever you do, it must be fast, effective and brutal. If it isn't, then you will not stop him before he causes you major damage.

You cannot stand there and engage in a long, drawn out contest with an armed opponent. If you try to do so, you will lose. It is not a matter of if, but of when.
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Old 15-07-2012, 11:37   #254
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Reality rears its head

+1
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Old 15-07-2012, 11:56   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

A webcam seems a good idea - maybe coupled with a pre-recorded (local lingo) voice advising that a) they have already been recorded and b) the images have already been downloaded ashore via the internet (no point them thinking that there is a VHS tape etc down below that they now need to collect!).

Personally I favour a group of Cruisers banding together into a shore raiding party and going after the Pirate King himself .
I'll bring the torches...

I'm still trying to figure out how to get up the 30 inch wide companionway with my 48 inch shield, long sword and armor...
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