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Old 14-07-2012, 09:01   #226
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There is no doubt all else being considered a handgun is a very good defence. The problem being ( a) it's illegal in lots of countries and (b) shooting someone leads to a world of paperwork, legal issues and possibly gaol.

I have a nice beretta 87T .22 , not a lot of stoping power but close up with a hollow points .......

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Damn that pesky paperwork...

So you are saying that if you stick a sharpened spear or boat hook in someone's neck there is no paperwork? Cool - LOL...


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Old 14-07-2012, 09:03   #227
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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Damn that pesky paperwork...

So you are saying that if you stick a sharpened spear or boat hook in someone's neck there is no paperwork? Cool - LOL...

@DoJ - "Bring us... A shrubbery!!!!!"
No I think if you can pull that nonsense off, you get put on their Olympics team ,..
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Old 14-07-2012, 09:39   #228
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
There is no doubt all else being considered a handgun is a very good defence. The problem being ( a) it's illegal in lots of countries and (b) shooting someone leads to a world of paperwork, legal issues and possibly gaol.

The other issue is of course you need time to deploy it, if the intruder is armed and you don't get that window. Well the outcome is fairly predictable. The consistent issue with these " successful" attacks is that the occupants were surprised. I think if you can remove the surprise element you can defend yourself in all sorts of passive and aggressive manners

I have a nice beretta 87T .22 , not a lot of stoping power but close up with a hollow points .......

But I'm totally against guns for self defense !!

This is why I advocate some sort of very loud and bright alarm system. Very easy to set up, and no boat invader will even realize you're going for a panic button. Even if it doesn't dissuade them from robbing you, their risk of being caught has just gone WAY up. They are less likely to harm you or your loved ones. Might be enough to chase them away right there.

You guys are talking about fighting as if you've all been in these situations. I look at the close quarters of my cabin. Whoever has the element of surprise will win. There's no room to jump around and maneuver like Errol Flynn.

But what I could do is let everyone within a mile know that something is terribly wrong on my boat.
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Old 14-07-2012, 09:50   #229
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This is why I advocate some sort of very loud and bright alarm system. Very easy to set up, and no boat invader will even realize you're going for a panic button. Even if it doesn't dissuade them from robbing you, their risk of being caught has just gone WAY up. They are less likely to harm you or your loved ones. Might be enough to chase them away right there.

You guys are talking about fighting as if you've all been in these situations. I look at the close quarters of my cabin. Whoever has the element of surprise will win. There's no room to jump around and maneuver like Errol Flynn.

But what I could do is let everyone within a mile know that something is terribly wrong on my boat.
Yes but you really need to discover their intentions before they board you. Once they are on board their temptation is to continue, not leave.

Secondly my experience is that people ignore " calls to help" so if the intruders don't suddenly get worried by merely a bright
Iight, your gamble has failed. Equally like the bocca incident what do you do if they reach your bedside. A gun in your wifes face is a powerful argument to " turn off those alarms "

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Old 14-07-2012, 09:50   #230
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
This is why I advocate some sort of very loud and bright alarm system. Very easy to set up, and no boat invader will even realize you're going for a panic button. Even if it doesn't dissuade them from robbing you, their risk of being caught has just gone WAY up. They are less likely to harm you or your loved ones. Might be enough to chase them away right there.

But what I could do is let everyone within a mile know that something is terribly wrong on my boat.
Glad you can let everyone know that you need help,,, you can also dial 911
or call the coast guard,,,sure they will respond very quickly when you tell them that there is an armed robber going to kill you. Lets see 911 average on land is about 6 minutes. Coast guard from 100 miles away at 30 knots to lazy to do the math.... OOOO by the way,,,,911 will not work out of the US and the response time is slower on water,,,,


if you needed help I would be the stupid one to bring the gun and help out as fast as I could,,,then try to leave the area,,,,,,if that happened you would probably tell the authorities that I over reacted and the 3 guys with the machete were not going to hurt you or you wife,,,they just wanted a drink of water.

sure your alarm system would work just fine,,make sure you put all the valuables in a very easy to find place,,,maybe they will just leave without hurting you
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Old 14-07-2012, 09:53   #231
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Damn that pesky paperwork...

So you are saying that if you stick a sharpened spear or boat hook in someone's neck there is no paperwork? Cool - LOL...


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perhaps a herring fish will work,,,you could hit them with it,,might break there nose


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Old 14-07-2012, 09:53   #232
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Correct KJ, in reality all you can offer is passive acceptance and it's what in fact the majority of people who are surprised do in practice. Few people are brave enough and stupid enough to tackle armed intruders on a boat in a foreign out of the way place.

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Old 14-07-2012, 09:56   #233
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

A sharp hook might be better,,,,,this way you could keep stabbing him in the neck over and over again instead of just shooting him once,,,

makes no since,,,if you feel you can not hurt someone with a gun how can you stab them,,,,everyone has a choice to make,,,,if it is me and my loved ones against several bad guys I will do my best to make sure it is them that are hurting not me or my family,,,rolling over and playing possum does not always work
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Old 14-07-2012, 10:00   #234
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Correct KJ, in reality all you can offer is passive acceptance and it's what in fact the majority of people who are surprised do in practice. Few people are brave enough and stupid enough to tackle armed intruders on a boat in a foreign out of the way place.

Dave

maybe some of us are trained to defend ourselves,,,,every situation is different,,,,but if you have no training you bend over and hope for the best,,,,,,Am I stupid enough,,,no just trained enough that I would do my best to read every situation and do what I think is right...if you can learn to sail you can learn to defend yourselfs,,,,it is not too hard,,,,,,
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Old 14-07-2012, 10:13   #235
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

video might be a little graphic for some but it is true.

If people can not spend a second to call 911 on a cellphone do you think they are going to come help you from another sailboat.
all your lights and sirens MIGHT scare the people away but I would not count on it,


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Old 14-07-2012, 10:47   #236
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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maybe some of us are trained to defend ourselves,,,,every situation is different,,,,but if you have no training you bend over and hope for the best,,,,,,Am I stupid enough,,,no just trained enough that I would do my best to read every situation and do what I think is right...if you can learn to sail you can learn to defend yourselfs,,,,it is not too hard,,,,,,
Maybe your are so trained. most are not and a few sessions down the range doesn't count. Equally you have to way up the risks to loved ones, etc, Its great that you defeated one intruder to have your wife shot by the other.

Even when intervention is done by highly trained military teams, innocents die.

IN my view in the case of the Bocca couple, there wasn't much choice, as least they are both still standing.

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Old 14-07-2012, 10:53   #237
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

Yes, the alarms are only good if there is someone to hear it and respond. I'd be disappointed to hear that it was the cruising way, to ignore calls for help.

Don't count on the tender mercies of people willing to trespass and threaten violence to get what they want. That is foolish optimism. Better to put your hopes in avoidance, prevention and deterrence.

Deciding on non-resistance before you know what you're about to face is abject surrender. Stay home where Nanny State can pretend to look after you at the press of a button.

Imagining every lowlife is automatically well armed and proficient and a bloodthirsty rapist is overestimating the threat. They're only people, and macho bravado and a weapon are often just safety blankies for a whole lot of wind and fear and vinegar on the hollow inside. Meeting determined resistance goes a long way to breaking the will to persevere.

Avoidance is best, prevention and deterrence covers the things you can't avoid. The best physical defence is to keep them off the decks. Of course, if you stand by inactive then they'll get over the rail anyway and have their way with you and your stuff. One significant aspect of keeping the decks inaccessible is that you also protect the opportunist fisherman that thinks a gringo cruiser is fair game for some half serious playacting from getting the full anti-pirate response.

The true hardcore nasties are rare and the chance of meeting them even less, but the proactive plan you come up with for dealing with this still real threat is part of handling the lesser types...which might just pass on the word that such-and-such a boat is not standing for nonsense, by not mentioning the embarassing failure. Fear is infectious and insidious. A success will be trumpeted and encourage others.

Now to saloon wars. Sure, the confined space limits your manouverability...but you can turn this to your advantage. It may mean you are defending a narrow passage so that you can only be attacked from the front. A shield and an implement that gives you a bit of standoff and menace is a formidable obstacle. Any crew behind the point man can help keep him on his feet, from being bumrushed backwards, and join in the fun with something a little longer. Make it really noisy, it'll pep you up and scare the pants off the opposition. Back in the old days it was called "press of pike" and it was extra messy and nasty but the real slaughter came when one side broke and the fugutives were mown down individually. In the passageway the attacker has his escape route open behind him and if resolutely pressed will find it hard to resist the temptation to flee....depending on why he is there in the first place. This is all assuming you're tried to hold them at the rail, failed and had to retreat to your Thermopylae (which famous battle resulted in defeat for the Greeks only because of treachery....as is so often the case). In that case, they are not about to leave if you serve them a strongly worded note, and they are likely not going to stop at pinching your rum and your camera. Once upon a time ordinary folk did train and keep themselves fit...the freedoms we enjoy and abuse to our hurt were won by them. Your mindset is vital...this communicates to potential hunters, they'll be encouraged by a passive reactive naive type but think better of trying someone where the uncertainty of easy pickings is great enough to overpower the perceived gains.

For the joking about Monty Python movies, may I refer you to the Black Knight scene. Not nearly wet enough and far too jocular. Where have all the real soldiers gone? All this pirate talk is grim and depressing, but seeing it is motivated by real life & death incidents the time to solve the problem is now, in advance. Fail to prepare and you leave yourself open to being featured in one of these sad threads as an example of what could have been done but wasn't. I've seen what can happen when the "no worries, she'll be right mate" attitude interferes with sensible actions. The cleanup and problem solving after is always worse. The mockers won't be there to help, and I won't want to rely on someone like that anyway. Who is watching your back? Are you?
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Old 14-07-2012, 11:39   #238
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

I have to say Micah, all these talk of defense is nonsense, ( I mean pikes etc) , In Bocca the guy had a gun for goodness sake. ( Im reminded of the Harrision Ford scene!).

comments like
"
Deciding on non-resistance before you know what you're about to face is abject surrender. Stay home where Nanny State can pretend to look after you at the press of a button.
"

Do nothing to address the issue and are nearly a re-statement of your political views. Often "surrendering" is the only thing you can do and its the right thing. I have many friends in law enforcement, and they will tell you do not aggravate the situation, defuse, and calm it, if possible.

Trying some dirt of ninja response, will likely get you or your loved ones killed or beaten up.


Yes, you are right many assailants are just ordinary humans, the problem is how do you deal with an intruder with a gun standing over your bed, quite simply you surrender. ( i.e. you have been outmaneuvered and outgunned)

Its easy to be an Armchair rambo, your not there in their place at that time.

If you do defeat their element of surprise, then you have a difficult judgement call, if there is immediate danger to loved ones, even if you can attack you risk a monumental error if it goes wrong. The typical cruiser is past 40, not particularly fit, not trained in self defense and must fundamentally of all, is not expecting trouble,

When you read these incidents, almost always the couple involved had had to resort to passive or surrender tactics. In most cases it works, they don't die ( see the chandlers). Few assailants want murder on their hands, must deaths come from rash acts that provoke a rash respond ( see Sir peter blake).

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Old 14-07-2012, 13:01   #239
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

I always sail with my gun, spear, hook, shield, helmet, armor, flares, fireworks, and blinding lights in the cockpit so they can't surprise me!

Of course, due to the clutter, I often step on the hook, causing me to trip over the helmet, hit my head on the shield, the gun goes off setting off the flares and the fireworks. This sets off my power hungry alarm and lights so everyone can come by and have a good laugh.



Seriously, the only defense from a surprise attack is to have these things at hand at all times, and none of them are practical in the cockpit of a real sailing vessel. It is impossible to ascertain the intentions of an approaching vessel until it is too late, even if you are not surprised.

Unless you sail around with your sidearm at all times, and are willing to kill someone who may or may not mean you harm, all of this machismo is for those who watch too much tv.

Even if your assailant is armed with just a machete, he has likely spent many thousands of hours with it in his hand like me (land surveying), and will carve a smily face in your helmet, shield, and then you.

Avoid those places or go in flotillas.
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Old 14-07-2012, 13:16   #240
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Re: Honduras: Sailing Boat Boarded and Robbed by Pirates

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Often "surrendering" is the only thing you can do and its the right thing. I have many friends in law enforcement, and they will tell you do not aggravate the situation, defuse, and calm it, if possible.


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Trying some dirt of ninja response, will likely get you or your loved ones killed or beaten up.
If someone is covering you with a gun, it would be monumentally stupid to try something; or if you know you are about to be executed anyway, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. There was a tragedy just last week in this country where a man took three or four people hostage...he told one to tie up the rest, he refused and was gunned down. The others did nothing, even though they could have simply mobbed the scumbag. They were executed too. If you will go over my posts please tell me where I am giving the impression of suggesting dumb things. I think I've made it clear more than once that the rail is where the world begins to trespass, not the hatch or your bedside, and may I add, your wife's undies. Touch my beloved like that and you'd better have a gun with real ammo and the intent to use it, and your wits about you, because one chance and you will not survive to see a courtroom. Melodramatic? Perhaps it sounds so, but real world events in our time and throughout history show the fighter and resister has a better chance than the kind that accepts victimhood. If you feel that way for yourself, your choice, but if you surrender someone whom you are responsible to protect, because you'd prefer to take a chance at saving your skin, that, sir, is cowardice. And no, I don't even own an armchair, I didn't come down in the last shower, and yes I have some experience in the nastier side of human beings and how to deal with the ones that refuse to play nice.

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The typical cruiser is past 40, not particularly fit, not trained in self defense and must fundamentally of all, is not expecting trouble,
Easy meat then....unless they play to their strengths and reduce their weaknesses. Stopping the world at the rail automatically avoids waking up with a nasty surprise. The price you pay is a little preparation, and a little more vigilance than one needs whilst living in the la-la land we were born into. I for one do not want to have to fight a losing battle against the odds on my boat, so I do what I can to avoid being forced to. I also do not want to be in the situation where I have allowed some ratbag to get the drop on me and have to watch as my beloved ones are hurt and my hard earned home is destroyed. You don't necessarily need my background, and you don't have to be an athlete, but quality training is not that hard and is actually good for the health. It is hard to muster sympathy for someone that seems to like being a victim.

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rash acts that provoke a rash respond ( see Sir peter blake).
I'll have to look at where Sir Blake went wrong...I don't know the details and am not sure of how much hype and crap I'll have to wade through to get them. Perhaps he drew back from an action he started rashly because he hadn't prepared himself mentally to see it through. If you can't finish the job, don't start it. If you're willing to take stupid risks like sleeping unprotected in a known dangerous area, I won't have any sympathy at all, in fact I may become rather rude. I'd say the number one security action you can take if you can't imagine yourself being prepared to physically remove someone from your boat, is to not call yourself a skipper, just go as crew, passenger or ballast.

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Few assailants want murder on their hands
So you call their bluff by making it very hard to get within range of you, leave them every option and every incentive you can try of them going away, but don't make it easy for them to succeed in their crimes. A real murderer will keep coming and then its time to break out the stern measures. They don't have it marked on their foreheads and may be so drug addled even they don't know what they're doing..taking chances is dumb.

Maybe I should write a "what if" scenario where I change my reasoning from avoidance and prevention to full on hunter-killer? Even you would notice the difference, goboatingnow.
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