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View Poll Results: Have you, personally ever pulled a gun to protect your boat in a foreign port?
yes 6 9.52%
no 57 90.48%
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Old 23-12-2007, 05:00   #76
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This post makes me a little nervous...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeratlas
Second time was more unique. In the middle of a big storm about 400 miles somewhere off the coast of Washington State/Oregon (not sure where we were, i.e. before gps ; we were in a storm had been running for our lives for some time, I picked up a pursuing vessel on radar coming up astern. It's a long story, but the short version is that after having failed to acknowledge or answer my repeated hails on a number of frequencies, and my having advised a US Navy vessel who was monitoring my calls, but not close enough to help, I advised that I was anticipating an imminent attack by an unknown vessel, in international waters. The USN vessel advised that he had similarly tried to hail the vessel on the mil channels and received no response. I then advised that I was prepared to repel boarders and was well armed and competent and intended to do so should the vessel continue to advance and not id itself and intentions. I watched the radar as the pursuing vessel advanced, but even at 400 meters in the dark of the storm it was invisible to me as all lights on board her had been extinguished. At about 50 yards, it veered to my starboard slightly and a huge spotlight appeared from above sweeping my decks. I had expected same and had my shooting eye protected. In any event I had a clear shot at the man operating the spot and i advised over the radio that either the light went out or I would kill the fellow manning the spotlight. The light went out, the ship surged forward alongside to starboard and accelerated past me as all ships lights came on.

It was a United States Coast Guard Cutter, but I could not get its number.

They refused to answer my hails, or those of the USN vessel who had them on radar and confirmed the incident. The on duty Officer on the USN vessel advised that he would file an incident report and I gave him my, and my us Documented vessel's information. The cutter swung off to starboard and took off into the night, having never said a single word.

I filed a report when I reached San Francisco. To this day the USCG has denied any of their vessels were in the vicinity and refused to acknowledge the incident.

I was both physically capable and mentally prepared to fire on that ship and would certainly have killed the crewman manning that light and taken the light out thereafter. Whomever was in command of that cutter was a fool. DOD types have told me it most likely was some kind of drug interdiction ship as there was a lot of mothership to fast boat drug running transfers reported off that coast during that season. Also a number of large cruising type sailboats (mine was 54 foot) were reported missing and suspected of having been pirated, used to bring loads in towards shore then sunk leaving no trace.

In any event, there you go.

seer


END QUOTE

Now don't get me wrong... I have a sawed off shotgun sitting right next to me right now. I have it in my RV and I've had it in my boat for a while. I'm no "anti-gun" guy. However, I can't more strongly caution against the use of a gun.

It is great that this poster shared such a good story, but (forgiving him for it), it is an example of paranoia out of control. People who think like he was thinking should not carry weapons.

Just because a boat is overtaking you doesn't make it a threat. Until you can "see the whites of their eyes" (see that they are actually up to no good), you shouldn't even think about breaking out firearms. One wrong shot and you're whole life will be gone (not to mention another innocent person's life).

If only there were a test of "level headedness" to determine who could own a gun...

These things are not toys and should never be used on "facts" pulled from one's imagination.

PS: I mean to harm to the poster. He has a lot of courage to post this story. He ended up doing the right thing and posting it here is a good lesson for all. My comments are toward cautioning people about making the same mistake and going around thinking an overtaking boat (ESPECIALLY IN THE USA!!) is a threat. 99.9% of everything is a non-threat. The gun should only be there for the .1% of the time you are backed in a corner and have no other way out.

Lastly, if the poster could have got his head together and thought clearly, he should have thought about using a gun only after identifying the overtaking vessel as a threat - not after imagining it was one. A time to think about guns from his post might be:

1) boat attempts a boarding and is NOT a USCG or Mil vessel
2) Other crew are holding weapons
3) Other crew attempts a boarding
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Old 23-12-2007, 08:22   #77
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Paranoia? Mr Sullivan, I would request you to read my succeeding posts which flesh out the whole story in greater detail. Respectfully, I suggest that very very few of those with bad intentions will *identify* themselves and those intentions in advance...the exact opposite being the normal course in my own experience. The incident could have, in fact, had a much worse outcome. However, I think I would still have held the higher ground when explaining my thoughts and actions before any reasonable tribunal, than would the captain of that cutter...and as for losing my head, well with all due respect, I have spent several careers throughout which I have been known, for keeping my head under the most difficult and extreme conditions. As I have often counseled, "he who thinks, lives".

As to the more general point, sorry to say that in my life I have encountered entire armies of people willing, in fact desiring to kill you given half a chance. With many, you are better off if you are killed immediately. I was not the first, I won't be the last to *contest* their advances.

Perhaps because I am from the american west, where more often than not there IS no one to call upon in an emergency except for perhaps your chosen deity, I am of the opinion that a man is responsible for his own life, his own decisions, and when entrusted with the responsibility for other lives as well, it is incumbent upon him to be 'prepared' to deal not only with the threats from nature itself, but also from the most dangerous animal on this planet, human beings. Many today do not concur. They sail offshore ill equipped to deal with the mischief that nature and the sea might deal them, and when the inevitable occurs, cry for help on whatever means they have available, fully expecting and often demanding that others disrupt their lives to come save these 'innocents' most often from predicaments they themselves have created. I am not sympathetic, tho I am somewhat understanding. It results from the nature of how western societies have *advanced*, the fostered interdependency, and sense of entitlement intended to guarantee votes. This is not to say that I would turn a blind ear, in fact I have risked my own life and ship on occasion in attempting to aid/rescue persons on a vessel in distress.

With respect to the Vietnamese encountered by Rodney..during the last years of the Viet Nam conflict, and for a long time thereafter, (still today by some accounts) "fishing boats" were taking people wishing to get out of the country offshore, then raping, murdering, plundering, selling children into slavery, etc. etc. etc. then returning for more 'innocents'. In fact they have a history of this kind of activity going on hundreds of years, and are known for attacking lesser fishermen, or other boats they think they can capture and are rightly feared. On the whole, the sense of value of human life in some cultures varies remarkably from our own-tho all cultures have their criminal sub cultures who will always be willing to take another step down the ladder of degradation for a profit.

In any event, some think its a bad idea to *train* the locals that they can intimidate every yachtsman pulling into harbor into simply laying down and turning over whatever plunder the locals might desire. The 'roll overs' are creating a growing problem by feeding the growing problem with incentives. Criminologists will tell you that very few violent criminals start off with violent crime. It is a matter of progression...I choose not to be a facilitator, either on the high seas, the docks, the seedier parts of some cities, the diplomatic social gatherings (that's where the real work gets done actually), a board room conference table or inn of court. You are , well here at least, and for the present, free to choose your own path.

I think it was Orwell who described the larger picture quite clearly,, something along the lines of:

"Good people sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because somewhere rough men stand ready to visit violence upon those who would do them harm."

I am now done with this thread, for as it has become increasingly clear, at its heart, it is not really about firearms. Its about one's willingness to take the steps necessary to enable one to defend and protect his and his own from the realities of life. These realities exist, whether some choose to deny them or not and no amount of verbage will influence those who have already chosen to live in a world existing only in their minds. Only real life experience can do that, and, unfortunately, sooner or later, it most likely will.

By the way, Merry Christmas everyone, and happy holidays to those who prefer that greeting. May good fortune, and a long and happy life grace you all. I wish you well.

seer

>on the way out, nods slightly in the direction of Iceman5, a simple but deserved acknowledgment of a 'rough man'.<
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Old 23-12-2007, 13:20   #78
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I am now done with this thread, for as it has become increasingly clear, at its heart, it is not really about firearms. Its about one's willingness to take the steps necessary to enable one to defend and protect his and his own from the realities of life. These realities exist, whether some choose to deny them or not and no amount of verbage will influence those who have already chosen to live in a world existing only in their minds. Only real life experience can do that, and, unfortunately, sooner or later, it most likely will.
I don't blame you.
I don't understand how some can't imagine the tension while a silent vessel continues to approach like you described.
I can't imagine the frustration.
And afterward I would want to find that skipper and..................
Your statements about the "west" seem spot on.
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Old 23-12-2007, 14:04   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssullivan View Post

Now don't get me wrong... I have a sawed off shotgun sitting right next to me right now. I have it in my RV and I've had it in my boat for a while. I'm no "anti-gun" guy. However, I can't more strongly caution against the use of a gun.
Sean, I would urge you to get rid of the weapon you describe, as mere possession of a sawed-off shotgun or rifle is a felony in many (most? all? - don't know) jurisdictions. They are classed with machine guns and silencers as having no legitimate purpose.

At least get an informed legal opinion on possession of a sawed-off shotgun.

TaoJones
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Old 23-12-2007, 15:15   #80
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I have to agree with TaoJones here. Its definatley a felony to possess a sawed off shotgun in Texas and I would bet alot of money that it is in most every state because Texas has the most liberal guns laws around.
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Old 23-12-2007, 16:57   #81
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I have to agree with TaoJones here. Its definatley a felony to possess a sawed off shotgun in Texas and I would bet alot of money that it is in most every state because Texas has the most liberal guns laws around.
I am sure he means one of those Mossberg types with the short barrel (legal) and maybe a pistol grip.
Makes for a very small, very powerful package.
I hope he has only skeet shot though, buck goes too far, too fast.

http:/http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31EKAG4YPZL._AA280_.jpg/www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/New/50411.jpg
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Old 23-12-2007, 17:11   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
I don't blame you.
I don't understand how some can't imagine the tension while a silent vessel continues to approach like you described.
I can't imagine the frustration.
And afterward I would want to find that skipper and..................
Your statements about the "west" seem spot on.

I can appreciate what it would be like having a boat approaching, refusing to answer the radio, and especially in waters where drug runners are active, and boat hi-jackings occur. The CG skipper created a dangerous situation, for his own crew as well as for seeratlas.

My point was - did the presence of the gun improve matters at all? I don't see that it did in this case. If he had actually fired, it could have been disastrous for him and the crewman on the cutter.

Conversely, if it had been drug runners looking to comandeer his boat, it might possibly have deterred them - but I doubt it. They would be heavily armed, and ruthless people.
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Old 23-12-2007, 17:29   #83
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My point was - did the presence of the gun improve matters at all? I don't see that it did in this case. If he had actually fired, it could have been disastrous for him and the crewman on the cutter.

Conversely, if it had been drug runners looking to comandeer his boat, it might possibly have deterred them - but I doubt it. They would be heavily armed, and ruthless people.
Agreed!

So there is no right answer.

When I get to cruise I won't be armed.

Don't tell the bad guys please.
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Old 24-12-2007, 02:07   #84
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Conversely, if it had been drug runners looking to comandeer his boat, it might possibly have deterred them - but I doubt it. They would be heavily armed, and ruthless people.
Around here the smugglers use unlighted powerboats with a couple of very large outboards on the back. Sailboats are too slow.

I've heard smugglers blasting by me at 3am. One night we accidentailly highlighted a couple of smuggling boats with our million watt torch whilst anchoring - they left in a hurry.
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Old 24-12-2007, 09:29   #85
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That's why I carry a Canadian flag. Everyone likes Canadians!

Well, not all the time. I am Canadian and there are times I hate us smug bastards.

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PS Merry Christmas
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Old 16-02-2008, 07:14   #86
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Keith:
Perhaps the locals, seeing your Starts & Stripes flying and suspecting your geniality, feared that you might be armed & dangerous, and displayed their weapon to discourage any paranoid reaction you may inflict upon their benign enjoyment of their national waters.
Extreme anti American statment.
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Old 16-02-2008, 12:34   #87
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Only when you take it compleatly out of context to the surrounding discussion that occured well over a year ago.
One could also read into your posting of this as trying to envoke an argument. Please don't.
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Old 16-02-2008, 13:22   #88
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GordMay was responding to the following post:

"Pulled it and was willing to use it in Ixtapa Mexico 2000
Was at anchor at 3 am or so when a jet skier and small boat came aside. The pilot of the small boat was handling a shotgun. I got myself and my .40 pistol to the ready and made my way to the electric panel hit the spreader lights and came to bare on the small boat. The guy I guess knowing the pistol had better range and harder hit that them single barreled shotgun turned away the skier followed close behind. Never heard a peep after that night. I know without the pistol and wit I would have been at least boatless in mexico if not dead. Keith"

It was a long time ago, and he did add a smiley face so I suppose it is OK.
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Old 16-02-2008, 16:04   #89
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Back on topic.
Because of the ballistic nature of this discussion I doubt that there will ever be an unemotional review of the need/right (which is it?) to protect yourself with the use of firearms.

I have had experience with coming to that key moment on board a yacht and without getting into details I view it simply like this:

“I have a bolt cutting tool onboard in case of a catastrophic rig failure. I never expect to use it but keep it well oiled and protected, ready for use.”

The same can be said about this topic, but because of the emotional baggage we all carry about self preservation vs. firearm risks there can be no correct answer.

Only a personal decision that you may, one day, need to live or die by.
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Old 16-02-2008, 20:06   #90
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I have no problem with anyone expressing their opinions on guns, but I do not like how most of these threads seem to lead to anti American sentiments (by a few).

Why are we the enemy?

I have blocked a few members comments from my view, but there are a few opinions I cannot block.
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