Have you ever...

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by muskoka

And you are the kind of idiot that takes pride in almost taking a pop at your own coast guard? I'd be embarassed. You're an aggro-merchant who'll find trouble wherever you go. Every one of your posts is presupposed by an assumption that every situation you're in is diabolical. Electrifying the lifelines?

I'm sorry, but your kind of view of the world is insular and at odds with what is really out there.

What I noticed about that story:
- he's on a small boat
- it's at night (total darkness)
- there's a storm (boat getting thrown around everywhere)
- there's a spotlight, millions of candlepower, aimed at him. they have plenty enough flood range that it would destroy your ability to look anywhere near it. he said it approached from the stern, which means when the light was "sweeping the decks", it would have been going fore and aft, absolutely hitting whatever area he was looking from, and certainly at an angle towards him.
- the "USCG" vessel is 50 yards away

So:
- 50 yards, on a stormy sea, you've got a dead shot on a guy standing inches from a spotlight.
- the USCG decided "eh, it's no big deal that there's a guy aiming a gun at a US warship, let's bail" and strolls away.

I was in the Navy, and the US Navy knows when it's going to war. You travel a long time, and have a lot of plans. The USCG is always at war, because every boat is a potential smuggler.

I could never imagine a USCG vessel seeing someone aiming a firearm at them, after being threatned on the VHF that they were going to be killed, and then disengaging. They would have riddled that boat with so much gun fire it would have sank in seconds.

And if that story is true, and that's a big if, you're saying that almost killing a USCG Sailor who was enganged in doing his duty for this country by trying to stop smugglers and protect our coast, is a good reason to pack heat? *totally crazy*

[yachtrodney]

Dear Kanani & Ex-Calif

I see - now let me get this straight.

What you both are saying - is that it was just a great big misunderstanding on my part:

- that they were just firing off hundreds of shots - OVER and AROUND me - and shouting 'Stop Ship' - as a Vietnamese Fishing Boat - TRADITIONAL WELCOME.

- that because the sea and weather conditions permitted easy aiming - if what I say was true - I should be DEAD.

- that if they'd really been serious - they would have ploughed their ship right in to my 60' yacht and jumped aboard

- that because they were flying flags - they were't pirates

- that because I took 2 photos at some point - it couldn't have been too serious

Give me an f......in break - what the hell is the matter with you two Vietnamese pirate apologists??

The only reason I'm not dead - is because they had no idea who, or how many people were actually on board this large yacht - that I was armed - and crazy - and that if they attempted to force the issue - and board - SOMEONE WAS GOING TO GET KILLED - perhaps even one of them.

I only have 2 photos from the entire incident - and they were both taken as I saw the vessel approach me from behind on the Port stern - and before any shots were fired. You cannot see anyone with weapons below the gunwale - or from that distance - other than the machine gun mounted on the bow.

Which is an unusual addition for a 'fishing vessel'. But of course according to you two - it was probably that world renowned bloody 'Coast Guard Service' just out to help passing yachties.

A similar looking large gun was held and fired in the air - 'Rambo fashion' by a man - while they swung in and out - shouting for me to stop.

Here are the two photos I have - they were 35mm prints that have been scanned. (click them for larger)



And they were taken BEFORE any shots were fired - while they were approaching and assessing.

I only wish I'd had the 2 of you there as the welcoming group - while I went below to prepare afternoon tea - for the visitors.

GET REAL - they were PIRATES - and I was outnumbered, outgunned, and outweighted - that's for sure. But I 'ROARED' loud enough - to make them think twice - then give it away.

It was absolutely - tired - exhausted - stupid - dumb-ass luck.

But THEY WERE PIRATES - I believed so then - and I do now.

Rodney

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by yachtrodney

I see - now let me get this straight.

What you both are saying - is that it was just a great big misunderstanding on my part:

Pardon the interruption, yachtrodney, but the posts by muskoka and rebel heart are referring to a post by Seeratlas regarding a completely different incident off the US west coast (Oregon or Washington, I think)

TaoJones

[yachtrodney]

I was answering Kanani & Ex-Calif - 2 normally clear thinking fellows - who are sailing in 'rose-coloured' sunglasses today - in a peaceful calm.

Rodney

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by yachtrodney

I was answering Kanani & Ex-Calif - 2 normally clear thinking fellows - who are sailing in 'rose-coloured' sunglasses today - in a peaceful calm.

Rodney

Very well . . . carry on.

TaoJones

[rebel heart]

I want to ask everyone (myself included) to please keep the flaming down. We're supposed to discuss the topics, not insult eachother or call eachother liars or idiots.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by yachtrodney

I was answering Kanani & Ex-Calif - 2 normally clear thinking fellows - who are sailing in 'rose-coloured' sunglasses today - in a peaceful calm.

Rodney

Sorry if I offended you Rodney.....that wasn't my intention, I can assure you (as I stated). I am sure that if I were in your shoes, I'd feel the same as you.

[Seeratlas]

Nope I almost shot an unknown on an unlit vessel who was refusing to identify same on the high seas, who had been pursuing me for some time, in an area known at that time for the hijacking of vessels just like mine, with the resultant loss of life of the crew, and ultimate scuttling of the vessels involved. The vessel commander never identified himself or his boat despite REPEATED requests from me AND a US Naval vessel on all relevant frequencies. He was warned that I was armed and prepared to repel boarders yet continued to approach, without lights, without identification. When he hit his spot I was inside of a fully enclosed center cockpit, the top of which shielded me from the spot. The only reason I know it was Coast Guard was because I hit it with my own spot as it bore away and saw the markings. The captain of that boat at no time before, during or after the incident identified himself or his vessel, or lit his vessel with anything but a single spot.

Now, as for being an 'idiot', well, I have fought in six 'armed conflicts' as they are known these days. I have several decorations, and received a full boat scholarship to Harvard Law upon the recommendation of a number of people that an educated US citizen might recognize. I have a number of undergraduate and graduate degrees, including doctoral, I am presently licensed to practice before a number of courts including the United States Supreme Court, the Court of Claims, and the Court of Appeals of 3 Districts, and have at time worked for DOD, State, and a couple of US law enforcement entities. I've also been licensed as a British Barrister. A former member of the East Asian Strategic Studies think tank , I was also the General Counsel for the last US 'official' Military Liason to the Republic of China.

Now, If I'm an 'idiot', who the hell are you? <spits>

seer

Originally Posted by muskoka

And you are the kind of idiot that takes pride in almost taking a pop at your own coast guard? I'd be embarassed. You're an aggro-merchant who'll find trouble wherever you go. Every one of your posts is presupposed by an assumption that every situation you're in is diabolical. Electrifying the lifelines?

I'm sorry, but your kind of view of the world is insular and at odds with what is really out there.

[Seeratlas]

sigh...covered this already.

Originally Posted by rebel heart

What I noticed about that story:
- he's on a small boat
- it's at night (total darkness)
- there's a storm (boat getting thrown around everywhere)
- there's a spotlight, millions of candlepower, aimed at him. they have plenty enough flood range that it would destroy your ability to look anywhere near it. he said it approached from the stern, which means when the light was "sweeping the decks", it would have been going fore and aft, absolutely hitting whatever area he was looking from, and certainly at an angle towards him.
- the "USCG" vessel is 50 yards away"


"So:
- 50 yards, on a stormy sea, you've got a dead shot on a guy standing inches from a spotlight.
- the USCG decided "eh, it's no big deal that there's a guy aiming a gun at a US warship, let's bail" and strolls away.

My most notable 'kill' was a North Vietnamese officer seated in a car at approximately 875 meters or so. 50 yards is trivial.


"I was in the Navy, and the US Navy knows when it's going to war. You travel a long time, and have a lot of plans. The USCG is always at war, because every boat is a potential smuggler."

There are rules of engagement, even for the USCG, which were CLEARLY violated in this incident. I am confident that under existing maritime law I would have been justified in firing on that vessel.

"I could never imagine a USCG vessel seeing someone aiming a firearm at them, after being threatned on the VHF that they were going to be killed, and then disengaging. They would have riddled that boat with so much gun fire it would have sank in seconds."

Obviously not, i'm still here and alive, as is all of my crew, and all of his. It would have been 'difficult' to justify open firing on a civilian vessel on the high seas given the near vicinity of a US Naval vessel monitoring and recording my transmissions, and heading for me at substantial speed, but I have no way of knowing what that imbecile commander had in mind.

"And if that story is true, and that's a big if, you're saying that almost killing a USCG Sailor who was enganged in doing his duty for this country by trying to stop smugglers and protect our coast, is a good reason to pack heat? *totally crazy*

"

As I said, I could id him only as a silhouette manning that light. Wasn't until after the captain accepted my invitation to secure his own light, and I hit mine as he blew past me that I id'd the vessel as USCG.

seer

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by yachtrodney

Dear Kanani & Ex-Calif


What you both are saying - is that it was just a great big misunderstanding on my part:


- that because they were flying flags - they were't pirates


Give me an f......in break - what the hell is the matter with you two Vietnamese pirate apologists??


GET REAL - they were PIRATES - and I was outnumbered, outgunned, and outweighted - that's for sure. But I 'ROARED' loud enough - to make them think twice - then give it away.

Rodney - I am not trying to impune your integrity.

No offense meant.

[yachtrodney]

Dear Wayne & Dan

Fellow seafarers and sailors of life.

I never took your comments as personal attacks of my statement of facts - as I remember them - albeit these years on.

But as I sit here and relive the scene and actions - I still cannot put an innocent 'spin' on the 'attack' - or a favourable outcome if no resistance had been offered.

I don't ever plan on returning to the China Sea - but who knows where the rudder turns and the wind beckons - I'm freedom's prisoner.

But I pray we all - meet only friends along the way.

Rodney

PS I would be disappointed - if for one moment - you did not express your thoughts openly and unreservedly - on any subject.

Who can ever know what's really happening - when it's how each one of us perceives the view.

Surely that's enough 'philosophisin' for one day.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by Seeratlas

b***s***
seer

sorry "bs" was too short for the board software
.....
Now, If I'm an 'idiot', who the hell are you? <spits>

seer

The kind of guy who doesn't respond to contrary opinions with rudeness & hostility.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by yachtrodney

Dear Wayne & Dan

Fellow seafarers and sailors of life.

I never took your comments as personal attacks of my statement of facts - as I remember them - albeit these years on.

But as I sit here and relive the scene and actions - I still cannot put an innocent 'spin' on the 'attack' - or a favourable outcome if no resistance had been offered.

I don't ever plan on returning to the China Sea - but who knows where the rudder turns and the wind beckons - I'm freedom's prisoner.

But I pray we all - meet only friends along the way.

Rodney

PS I would be disappointed - if for one moment - you did not express your thoughts openly and unreservedly - on any subject.

Who can ever know what's really happening - when it's how each one of us perceives the view.

Surely that's enough 'philosophisin' for one day.

About that time (or perhaps a few years prior) the Chinese "Coast Guard" impounded a couple of Hong Kong yachties under similar circumstances. They boarded the boats and detained the crew for a few months. One of the unusual aspects was that the Chinese boat was just some rundown fishing boat - they didn't really have a budget for flash coast guard vessels back then.

[CharlieCobra]

Enough of the arguing. You folks are gonna kill this thread. I read last year about a Red Sea convoy that was attacked by pirates and fired upon. One of the faster boats veered off away while the other boat not being fired on by the two pirate boats, fired at the pirates with shotgun slugs, killing or wounding two of them. The first pirate boat peeled off to run while the second shifted fire to the resisting yacht. The yacht's skipper shot another pirate and the last pirate boat broke contact and fled. None of the yachties were injured, though their boats were shot up a bit. The yacht skipper did not open fire until after the pirates. This was off the coast of Yemen. That skip was a helluva shot with that shotty, much better than I. The incident was reported to the USN and other authorities and is documented. I don't, however, recall the yacht names or the date.

[iceman5]

Originally Posted by Kanani

I would not recommend carrying a gun on a sailboat. The following story is a perfect example of why not.

In '96 we were en-route from Darwin Australia to Christmas Island (about 1500NM W of Darwin). As we passed S of Bali (about 200NM S) we were down below having dinner at about sunset. We were making about 8kts with 20-25kts of breeze on the beam and everything up. We heard a punka-punka-punka-punka-punka. I thought, "What the heck is that and jumped up to the cockpit expecting some sort of rigging problem". Then I got the shock of my life. There was an old wooden Chinese Junk with about 20 ill clothed, under-nourished men on-board. They were approaching our bow accross our path on the SB side. As they got to our bow, their skipper through their punka-punka- one lunger into reverse to round-up next to us. About 10 of those guys were on the outside of the rail now but they under-estimated our speed through the water and never got on board.

As we passed them, the thought of "Pirates" didn't really cross my mind at first because everything happened so fast. I did, however, feel sorry for how desperate these guys looked being 200 miles out at sea with so many people on about a 60' boat. I mean, how much food and water could these guys carry. My 1st thought was to throw some jeri-jugs over-board that we carried drinking water in. However, that thought was fleeting.

Then I noticed that these guys were coming after us, full steam ahead. I guess that their thinking was that the wind usually died-off after sunset. He could only make about 6-7 kts but the wind had subsided a bit and we were doing 6.5-7.5. We were keeping a good distance though. They continued following us well into the night. They had a light on down below and I could see it every now and then when we would both be on top of a sea. I carried all of my running lights until mid-night. At mid-night, we went to black-out mode and changed course about 15 degrees.

We never saw them again but we did report them to the Australian Coast Guard via SSB right away. They kept us on a 30 minute sched for the entire night and 4 times a day for the next couple days.


About 6 months later, when we arrived in Durban South Africa, I happened to pick up a yachting magazine that had an article about a couple with a young child that had the exact same experience, about 3 days after we did. The description of the vessel was the same but the outcome was very different.

When punka-punka pulled up to them, the husband told the wife to go down-below and get their gun. She opened the fore-hatch and pointed the rifle at the approaching vessel. Someone on that boat produced a gun and shot her dead. They boarded the boat, stole everything that they owned, including instruments, cushions, clothes food...literally everything that they could pick up or tear loose. However, they left the man and baby alone. He made their way to Bali, with his dead wife, where they interagated him for her murder. What an awful, awful sad story that was.

The lesson that I learned from that scenario was. If you pull a gun, be prepared to die because you have just obligated your attacker to kill you. If you don't pull a gun you stand some chance of living. Most of these people are desperate for things. They are not necessarily desperate to kill or harm. Then I had to ask myself if I was prepared to watch my wife be raped by these attackers. The only other option would probably be to watch her die (as did this poor guy) and die myself. No one can really answer that question unless it has happened to them so please don't bother remarking on it.

So every time someone attacks / robs me I should just stand there and let them? I shouldnt defend myself?

No thanks. I'd rather be dead.

Your reasoning is the same mentality that allows peopel to put their head between the knees and wait to be shot as they hear some crazed gunman shooting one person after another as we've seen at Virginia Tech and at other schools and malls.