Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: Have you, personally ever pulled a gun to protect your boat in a foreign port?
yes 6 9.52%
no 57 90.48%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-12-2007, 20:26   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by muskoka View Post
The desire to carry a firearm is inversely proportional to the amount of travel an individual has experienced...
b***s***

seer

sorry "bs" was too short for the board software
__________________

__________________
Seeratlas is offline  
Old 01-12-2007, 20:30   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by krugerrand View Post
This always comes up and most of the people who say they have guns are full of it. You get caught with a weapon in ports outside the USA and your butt is in a sling. I carry a stainless 300 win mag in the USA. I have only had one time in many years cruising around the states some guys tried to slip up on me while I was alone at anchor. My old rottie heard them and woke me so I spotlighted them and turned on every light they left in a hurry in a fast little Action Craft,I knew that because they got that close. Lots of lights and even fire off a flare in the air to draw attention,but no guns out of this country. Life time member of the NRA and 7 years 9 months USMC. Just not a good idea.


300 win mag? lot of gun for a boat. why?

seer
__________________

__________________
Seeratlas is offline  
Old 01-12-2007, 20:34   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancerbye View Post
No but, hiking and fishing in Northern Canada some years back I used to carry a firearm as a bear deterent. Pulled it once when a bear started acting a little agressive but I resorted to throwing rocks at him to get him to move along. I was only brave enough to do that because I would have been able defend myself if things had gone sour. Boats and borders and guns are too much of a hassle.
can take a bigger gun than you think to dissuade a hungry bruin.

seer
__________________
Seeratlas is offline  
Old 01-12-2007, 21:10   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 217
Ok, since no one else has owned up, I have pulled weapons twice outside the coastal waters of the US. (boat related- military related a different story)

First time was in Mexico, a young, wealthy (judging by dress, car, and girl in the front seat of the convertible he parked at the fuel dock) pulled a pistol hidden inside his belt on his back, on some poor local fisherman and simply took the gas he wanted, I, my brother, and my aging father were standing on the dock waiting to fuel, when he turned our way, I showed him my own pistol and after locking eyes, he put his away and got in the car and left, screaming what I think were insults at the cowed fishermen who looked , well simply miserable. The insults might have been intended for me/us but I didn't hear the usual slurs for americans. This kind of intimidation used to be common down there. I could tell you stories of what I've seen rich mexicans do to poor ones.

Second time was more unique. In the middle of a big storm about 400 miles somewhere off the coast of Washington State/Oregon (not sure where we were, i.e. before gps ; we were in a storm had been running for our lives for some time, I picked up a pursuing vessel on radar coming up astern. It's a long story, but the short version is that after having failed to acknowledge or answer my repeated hails on a number of frequencies, and my having advised a US Navy vessel who was monitoring my calls, but not close enough to help, I advised that I was anticipating an imminent attack by an unknown vessel, in international waters. The USN vessel advised that he had similarly tried to hail the vessel on the mil channels and received no response. I then advised that I was prepared to repel boarders and was well armed and competent and intended to do so should the vessel continue to advance and not id itself and intentions. I watched the radar as the pursuing vessel advanced, but even at 400 meters in the dark of the storm it was invisible to me as all lights on board her had been extinguished. At about 50 yards, it veered to my starboard slightly and a huge spotlight appeared from above sweeping my decks. I had expected same and had my shooting eye protected. In any event I had a clear shot at the man operating the spot and i advised over the radio that either the light went out or I would kill the fellow manning the spotlight. The light went out, the ship surged forward alongside to starboard and accelerated past me as all ships lights came on.

It was a United States Coast Guard Cutter, but I could not get its number.

They refused to answer my hails, or those of the USN vessel who had them on radar and confirmed the incident. The on duty Officer on the USN vessel advised that he would file an incident report and I gave him my, and my us Documented vessel's information. The cutter swung off to starboard and took off into the night, having never said a single word.

I filed a report when I reached San Francisco. To this day the USCG has denied any of their vessels were in the vicinity and refused to acknowledge the incident.

I was both physically capable and mentally prepared to fire on that ship and would certainly have killed the crewman manning that light and taken the light out thereafter. Whomever was in command of that cutter was a fool. DOD types have told me it most likely was some kind of drug interdiction ship as there was a lot of mothership to fast boat drug running transfers reported off that coast during that season. Also a number of large cruising type sailboats (mine was 54 foot) were reported missing and suspected of having been pirated, used to bring loads in towards shore then sunk leaving no trace.

In any event, there you go.

seer
__________________
Seeratlas is offline  
Old 03-12-2007, 14:27   #35
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Seer’s first tale reminds me of a time, not afloat, but similar (tho’ I was unarmed):
My then buddy (now Brother-In-Law) & I (both late teens) stopped in at an all-night convenience store (after a night of bar crawling), and witnessed a couple of younger (16 Y/O?) girls being harassed by a couple of punks in a car.
We went to opposite sides of the car, and I advised the driver that it was time to leave the girls alone & F/O. Meanwhile, his buddy opened his jacket & displayed a pistol, which I didn’t see but my buddy did. Whilst I was talking “tough”, my bud was gesturing for me to move away.
Finally I saw the gun, whereupon I grabbed the (unarmed) driver by the shirt, dragged his head out the window, and suggested that his buddy was about to get him killed.
The driver panicked, his buddy sat paralysed, and they departed in a hurry.
I went home & changed my shorts.

Seer’s second tale reminds me that military vessels (including USCG) generally do NOT identify themselves when on surveillance/interdiction missions.

My all-time scariest encounter was with (2) very aggressive US Marshals, who knocked on my boat. I’m glad I didn’t defend my “rights” by displaying a firearm to these unsavoury & tough-looking thugs.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline  
Old 14-12-2007, 17:48   #36
Registered User
 
yachtrodney's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Botany Bay Australia
Boat: custom 75' ferro yacht
Posts: 98
Images: 32
Pulled guns twice - when attacked off Vietnam

In 1991 - while sailing my 55' Yacht Duke alone from HongKong to Bangkok - in the China Sea - I went within 30 mile of the Vietnam Coast - as I was running a week behind to get there and meet someone.

On 2 days running I was attacked and fired over - by rusty old Pirate vessels - with many on board - and armed with machine guns and rifles. On each occasion many shots were fired over and around me to try and get me to stop.

Both times I produced rifles myself and on the first occasion - taking shelter in the cockpit and firing in the air - was enough to cause the attackers to veer away.

On the second day - this vessel - attacked me - firing hundreds of shots - and ordering me to stop.



I behaved like a crazy man - storming and screaming from one end of the deck to the other - brandishing rifles - and near naked with a billowing cape and motor bike helmet on my head - I swore abuse and threats back like a madman.

It did not deter them - and they kept firing overhead - but kept their distance.

I produced a 12 gauge flare pistol - that I had purchased in Guam - and in plain view loaded it with a charge - took aim at the ship - raised above - and fired it.

It just about frightened me as much as them - as the flaming flare shot 100m and straight across their bow deck. I'm sure if it had hit the boat it would have caused a fire.

They turned away as fast as they could - and kept going.

To this day - I know that I could have been shot dead at any moment - but I think that my act and the show of weapons and resistance each time - was enough to convince them that it was too risky - for them - to try and board.

Particularly dealing with a crazy person.

When I arrive in Bangkok several days later - with almost no sleep and the constant fear of attack - I was a physical & emotional wreck.

I am by no means a violent person - and although I had the rifles on board - which hadn't been fired in many years - (except once to kill a shark being landed) - and that I'd had to declare and surrender in just about every port - I wouldn't hesitate to have a weapon onboard - which I don't now.

I had always said - to every cruising acquaintance I met - when the subject invariably came up - that I would NEVER - under any circumstances - let someone board and take the yacht - and would defend myself and my yacht.

It is for each person to decide what they can and cannot do - and I did not have the consideration of others or children on board - I was a man alone at sea on his yacht. But I'm sure that without the show of force and guns - the ship would have been immediately boarded, taken - and whatever else.

Thankfully - I survive to tell the tale.

Rodney

PS. I should also mention that - I had broken with my own rules - to keep 150 miles off the coast - as running late due to earlier engine trouble and having been becalmed - I made the choice to cut across the corner of Vietnam - which put me within easy reach of these boats.
__________________
yachtrodney is offline  
Old 14-12-2007, 18:07   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southern California
Boat: Was - Passport 45 Ketch
Posts: 837
I would not recommend carrying a gun on a sailboat. The following story is a perfect example of why not.

In '96 we were en-route from Darwin Australia to Christmas Island (about 1500NM W of Darwin). As we passed S of Bali (about 200NM S) we were down below having dinner at about sunset. We were making about 8kts with 20-25kts of breeze on the beam and everything up. We heard a punka-punka-punka-punka-punka. I thought, "What the heck is that and jumped up to the cockpit expecting some sort of rigging problem". Then I got the shock of my life. There was an old wooden Chinese Junk with about 20 ill clothed, under-nourished men on-board. They were approaching our bow accross our path on the SB side. As they got to our bow, their skipper through their punka-punka- one lunger into reverse to round-up next to us. About 10 of those guys were on the outside of the rail now but they under-estimated our speed through the water and never got on board.

As we passed them, the thought of "Pirates" didn't really cross my mind at first because everything happened so fast. I did, however, feel sorry for how desperate these guys looked being 200 miles out at sea with so many people on about a 60' boat. I mean, how much food and water could these guys carry. My 1st thought was to throw some jeri-jugs over-board that we carried drinking water in. However, that thought was fleeting.

Then I noticed that these guys were coming after us, full steam ahead. I guess that their thinking was that the wind usually died-off after sunset. He could only make about 6-7 kts but the wind had subsided a bit and we were doing 6.5-7.5. We were keeping a good distance though. They continued following us well into the night. They had a light on down below and I could see it every now and then when we would both be on top of a sea. I carried all of my running lights until mid-night. At mid-night, we went to black-out mode and changed course about 15 degrees.

We never saw them again but we did report them to the Australian Coast Guard via SSB right away. They kept us on a 30 minute sched for the entire night and 4 times a day for the next couple days.


About 6 months later, when we arrived in Durban South Africa, I happened to pick up a yachting magazine that had an article about a couple with a young child that had the exact same experience, about 3 days after we did. The description of the vessel was the same but the outcome was very different.

When punka-punka pulled up to them, the husband told the wife to go down-below and get their gun. She opened the fore-hatch and pointed the rifle at the approaching vessel. Someone on that boat produced a gun and shot her dead. They boarded the boat, stole everything that they owned, including instruments, cushions, clothes food...literally everything that they could pick up or tear loose. However, they left the man and baby alone. He made their way to Bali, with his dead wife, where they interagated him for her murder. What an awful, awful sad story that was.

The lesson that I learned from that scenario was. If you pull a gun, be prepared to die because you have just obligated your attacker to kill you. If you don't pull a gun you stand some chance of living. Most of these people are desperate for things. They are not necessarily desperate to kill or harm. Then I had to ask myself if I was prepared to watch my wife be raped by these attackers. The only other option would probably be to watch her die (as did this poor guy) and die myself. No one can really answer that question unless it has happened to them so please don't bother remarking on it.
__________________
Kanani is offline  
Old 17-12-2007, 14:38   #38
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Here's a good reason not to bring one:

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Metro -- South Park shooting ends with woman, 25, dead

Happened this morning; I know the people involved. In regards to the poster above getting ready to shoot a USCG sailor, I'd regard that as a reason *not* to bring a firearm.

I've lived next door to Mexico for a long time and go there often. My fiancee has taught school there. I have a lot of friends from there. For whatever reason, I've managed to never see any of the "evil Mexicans" that I hear about so often. Chaulking them up to sea stories.
__________________
rebel heart is offline  
Old 17-12-2007, 15:38   #39
Registered User
 
liberty16's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut, USA
Posts: 118
Images: 1
There is a huge difference between an obviously untrained, frightful individual shooting into shadows (and killing an innocent person) and someone who has identified a real threat, been fired upon, attempted boarding, etc and then choosing to defend himself.

A gun is a tool, it can be used or misused. Often it is misused by people who don't know what they are doing and let their fears control them. While you are probably right that is a big hassle and not worth the trouble, and you will probably never need it, I don't think I disagree with people who choose to carry one. However, they should take it upon themselves to be well trained, properly identify their target, weigh their options and only use it as a last resort.
__________________
LIVE, LOVE, LEARN
liberty16 is offline  
Old 17-12-2007, 17:47   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 217
Interesting story. If I was still in law enforcement I'd be asking some questions. Seems unusual that someone who knew others stayed in the home and that they had gone out, and therefore would presumably be returning; would still shoot without challenging, someone merely standing in a hallway.... I think I'll wait for the investigation to conclude before reaching a judgment on what actually went on here.

As for the rest of your post, well I like being alive, just my personal preference, one i've developed over many many years. The guys who gave us this country decided NOT to just 'turn the other cheek'. The reason we still have it, is because some of their descendants felt and continue to feel the same way, in fact, I'm one of those descendants, as was my father, and my father's father, and now my son. I am content.

So, you've never seen an "evil mexican" eh? I know this may come as a shock but not only do we have mexicans committing crimes in the US, they actually have crime in mexico too! Hell, they even have homicides, lots of em. Some involve some really remarkable executions , a lot of which involve applying edged steel to sensitive body parts. I guess you just don't get around much. Every culture has violent crime, more so in places like mexico where the gap between the haves and have nots is sooooo huge. This is not to say that you can't find the same thing should u wander into Compton, or the rampart or south philly, parts of Boston, or any other major city in the US where you have pockets of poverty and profound despair. Or even the up town where sometimes the most vicious psychotics of all are born and raised...Violence seems, at least to me, endemic to the human race. I have a lifetime full of experience dealing with people who are perfectly willing to take everything you have: your money, your property, your wife, your daughter, and/or your life, and laugh and joke while they do it. Many faces, many races, many religions. Getting old now, kind of set in my ways. Don't see any good reason to start turning cheeks now.

I gave that coast guard cutter commander every opportunity to avoid bloodshed, and in the end he did. His actions were beyond reckless. In that sea, in pitch dark, and given the relative speed of the two vessels, it was entirely possible he could have clipped my stern as he went by or worse. What if I had jibed at the last moment to avoid being run down and guessed wrong? What would have happened if I had fired up my own multi million candlepower spot in the eyes of the man at the helm in a justifiable effort to identify my pursuer? Just a couple of extra blinks and we both would have sustained substantial damage, with my ship more likely being sunk than his, and me and my crew destined to join the ranks of yachtsmen 'lost at sea'. Or, what if they HAD been the drug runners he was apparently in search of? With his tactics, same result. Sorry, include me OUT.

In my youth, the Coast Guard was the 'cavalry', not the gestapo. With that one exception, in my book the cavalry they remain.

"Sea stories" eh? <spits>

well I hope you don't have the opportunity to acquire a few of your own. Some poor law enforcement b*stard might get himself killed trying to save u.
Now that would be a waste.

seer

Ok, having reflected a bit on the foregoing, probably a bit too harsh. My apology. However, it is a mistake to assume that because you have not seen or done something, that someone else who has,must be making up 'sea stories'. It has been my good fortune to meet and get to know a number of people who have seen, done, or caused things outside the experience of , well for lack of a better terminology, those who live more *normal* lives. People who know me might very well say the same.

seer
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
Here's a good reason not to bring one:

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Metro -- South Park shooting ends with woman, 25, dead

Happened this morning; I know the people involved. In regards to the poster above getting ready to shoot a USCG sailor, I'd regard that as a reason *not* to bring a firearm.

I've lived next door to Mexico for a long time and go there often. My fiancee has taught school there. I have a lot of friends from there. For whatever reason, I've managed to never see any of the "evil Mexicans" that I hear about so often. Chaulking them up to sea stories.
__________________
Seeratlas is offline  
Old 17-12-2007, 18:40   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southern California
Boat: Was - Passport 45 Ketch
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtrodney View Post
In 1991 - On 2 days running I was attacked and fired over - by rusty old Pirate vessels - with many on board - and armed with machine guns and rifles. On each occasion many shots were fired over and around me to try and get me to stop.

Both times I produced rifles myself and on the first occasion - taking shelter in the cockpit and firing in the air - was enough to cause the attackers to veer away.

On the second day - this vessel - attacked me - firing hundreds of shots - and ordering me to stop.

I behaved like a crazy man - storming and screaming from one end of the deck to the other - brandishing rifles - and near naked with a billowing cape and motor bike helmet on my head - I swore abuse and threats back like a madman.

It did not deter them - and they kept firing overhead - but kept their distance.

I produced a 12 gauge flare pistol - that I had purchased in Guam - and in plain view loaded it with a charge - took aim at the ship - raised above - and fired it.

It just about frightened me as much as them - as the flaming flare shot 100m and straight across their bow deck. I'm sure if it had hit the boat it would have caused a fire.

They turned away as fast as they could - and kept going.

To this day - I know that I could have been shot dead at any moment - but I think that my act and the show of weapons and resistance each time - was enough to convince them that it was too risky - for them - to try and board.
yachtrodney,

I didn't see your story until just now. It seems that you posted while I was busy writing my story.

I would like to comment on your story and I hope that I don't offend you by doing so.

First of all, most fisherman in those areas carry guns on-board for a multitude of reasons (shooting sharks, seal etc or just for defence). The least of which is piracy. It is also very common for fisherman to fire guns into the air in those areas as a sort of, "greeting", if you will. I have seen this and heard of it from others a couple of times.

It appears from your picture that this vessel is a typical, working Vietnamese fishing vessel. The vessel that I encountered had absolutely no equipment of any kind on-board. Especially not radar or HF radio antennas. The vessel was completely stark. Not even a float or line on deck....nothing. I was even a bit surprised that they could keep it afloat as the wood looked to be rotting in the hull.

It occurs to me that if the men on that boat would have wanted to do harm to you, it was well with-in their power to do so. Had your flare landed on their deck, I have no doubt that they would have killed you. Had you fired on and hit one of the crew or given them any other reasonable proof that you attacked them, I have no doubt that you would be dead and your boat sunk.

If you were within 30 miles of the Vietnamese Coast, there was the possibilty of another vessel coming along had they tried to board you. There was also a possibilty (in their mind) that you were in contact (by HF radio) with others and had identified their vessel (and yours).

Those people aren't stupid and a well fitted out fishing vessel (by their standards) would not normally risk attacking another vessel that close to shore.

The waters that I was traveling in were far less risky, IMO. There was little risk of these guys being seen trying to board my vessel. I assume the reason that they did not fire on us was because they didn't know that they could stop us and we made no hostile movements toward them.

i would like to think that their intentions were less hostile than you percieved.
__________________
Kanani is offline  
Old 17-12-2007, 18:57   #42
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtrodney View Post
On 2 days running I was attacked and fired over - by rusty old Pirate vessels - with many on board - and armed with machine guns and rifles. On each occasion many shots were fired over and around me to try and get me to stop.
1/ Although grainy after enlargement, I don't se anyone on that deck with a gun
2/ In dead flat water and clear visibility, how could "hundreds of shots" miss you and/or your boat? The world's most innept pirates?
3/ In dead flat water and clear visibility, how could you miss them?
4/ In the dead flat conditions pictured there is no way they could not overtake you, ram you or otherwise overwhelm you. BTW - If I "was" a pirate in those conditions with that boat, a ramming with everyone below the gunwales would be my exact strategy after you fired on me
4/ While under pirate attack you have time to get out a camera and take pictures?
5/ They are flying not one, but two flags. very strange behavior for pirates

Hey - It's your story. I wasn't there...

I did hear this story a fisherman told his wife once. "There I was honey sidling up to my drift net with the boys and some freakin' crazy man, naked except for a cape started firing flares and guns at us. We tried to save our net and ask him to give clearway but the suminabitch didn't speak any Vietnamese and kept freakin' shooting at us. I need to get a safer line of work. maybe I'll take up piracy."
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline  
Old 19-12-2007, 00:11   #43
Registered User
 
muskoka's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sai Kung, Hong Kong
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40 / Hatteras 48
Posts: 775
Maybe it was the Vietnamese coast guard...
__________________
muskoka is offline  
Old 19-12-2007, 13:40   #44
Registered User
 
muskoka's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sai Kung, Hong Kong
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40 / Hatteras 48
Posts: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeratlas View Post
b***s***

seer

sorry "bs" was too short for the board software
And you are the kind of idiot that takes pride in almost taking a pop at your own coast guard? I'd be embarassed. You're an aggro-merchant who'll find trouble wherever you go. Every one of your posts is presupposed by an assumption that every situation you're in is diabolical. Electrifying the lifelines?

I'm sorry, but your kind of view of the world is insular and at odds with what is really out there.
__________________
muskoka is offline  
Old 19-12-2007, 14:14   #45
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Ditto on the comment about how people have guns in different parts of the world for very different reasons. If you go to Iraq, nearly every male has an AK47 on their back when walking around. Means a much different thing than if you saw someone strolling through Manhattan with an AK47.

I have friends from Europe who cannot understand why I would ever own a gun. They see it as me being ready and wanting to use it, even though that's obviously far from the case.

Along those lines of reasoning, when you see someone on a boat with a gun, it doesn't really mean the same thing as you standing on your decks with a gun. I've been in the Navy, I fought in Desert Fox. I've owned firearms and still have a pistol. I don't take it into other countries.
__________________

__________________
rebel heart is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.