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Old 14-09-2016, 21:23   #121
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
To those who say 'heave to' I suggest you DO. Then come back, let's discuss some more.

If you do this too close to the MOB, you will have very little time to fix the sheets/tiller then to run and do what exactly - you may end up on top of the person.

If you do this a bit to far to the windward, you may actually drift by the MOB. No good unless you have a heaving line (a throwing line) at hand at all times and are BLOODY good at using one in high wind and on a slanted deck.

...

No bashing. Only pointing towards the possible challenges.

I think the technique is OK, just takes a lot lot LOT of training.

I think it is good only if you are actually sailing in the sail combo that your boat will stay hove to with - very many boats lay hove too only under a specific amt of main / jib for each specific wind force. The less wind, the more moder the boat, the more difficult the maneuver.

b.
If you are one of a double handed crew, the other goes over and you are not hove to, where is the boat going to go when you leave the helm?

Heaving to is the only option, else the boat is out of control with nobody at the helm. Even if there are 10 other crew, but none are adept at handling the boat for the given sea state, leaving the helm with boat hove to, is still the only real option that has any chance of success, except in windless sunny day conditions.

And yes, if you don't know how to heave to already, your chances of successful MOB recovery with short-handed crew in anything is pretty unlikely.

BTW, I don't know a single boat that will heave to with all sails doused and secured, and the foresail sheets eased.

Again, after rounding the MOB, the towed sling or ring line is pulled right to them. Nobody has to throw anything. Just drop it off the stem before reaching the MOB. Hove to, boat drift is less than 1.5 knots. Not hove to and the drift speed is much faster, as soon as the boat falls off and sails fill. In 20 knots most boats will drift in excess of 3 knots under bare poles.
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Old 14-09-2016, 21:32   #122
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
To those who say 'heave to' I suggest you DO. Then come back, let's discuss some more.

If you do this too close to the MOB, you will have very little time to fix the sheets/tiller then to run and do what exactly - you may end up on top of the person.

If you do this a bit to far to the windward, you may actually drift by the MOB. No good unless you have a heaving line (a throwing line) at hand at all times and are BLOODY good at using one in high wind and on a slanted deck.

...

No bashing. Only pointing towards the possible challenges.

I think the technique is OK, just takes a lot lot LOT of training.

I think it is good only if you are actually sailing in the sail combo that your boat will stay hove to with - very many boats lay hove too only under a specific amt of main / jib for each specific wind force. The less wind, the more moder the boat, the more difficult the maneuver.

b.
Yep, I agree. Also some might assume that a hove-to boat is standing still in the water, which it isn't.

I'd like to suggest we all practice this AS THE MOB too. I did this once many years ago, but in pretty calm conditions, and it was hard to see anything in the water at water level in the chop and bobbing up and down, with the PFD is up around my neck. It is hard to move or swim in weather gear">foul weather gear. If you are figuring reaching too far or swimming for a line or ring, don't count on it. Let's all go out this weekend and try it and come back Monday to report back! No cheating with wetsuits under the foul weather gear!
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Old 15-09-2016, 03:20   #123
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Speaking about wind
Incredible video yesterday of shipping containers in Taiwan being blown over by Typhoon

https://twitter.com/dspencer47/statu...85714429243392
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Old 15-09-2016, 06:27   #124
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Yep, I agree. Also some might assume that a hove-to boat is standing still in the water, which it isn't.

I'd like to suggest we all practice this AS THE MOB too. I did this once many years ago, but in pretty calm conditions, and it was hard to see anything in the water at water level in the chop and bobbing up and down, with the PFD is up around my neck. It is hard to move or swim in foul weather gear. If you are figuring reaching too far or swimming for a line or ring, don't count on it. Let's all go out this weekend and try it and come back Monday to report back! No cheating with wetsuits under the foul weather gear!
Yup, trying to throw a life ring with any accuracy and distance while wearing
Foul weather gear and PFD with harness and tether, in wind and waves, and avoiding obstructions like lifelines, Dodgers, biminis, and barbecues is near impossible. That is why you just drop it off the back, round close to the MOB, it pulls the line right to them. And yes, hove to in 20 knots you will drift about 1.5 knots (with main eased behind the foresail, after heaving to) which is the slowest drift possible.
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Old 15-09-2016, 08:16   #125
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Yes. It all has to be taken into account. Bay waters even on a blustery days are different from typical ocean/crossing run.

Back to the topic, I once heard an allegory which seems to stick: if someone goes overboard from an ocean going boat in full swing (high winds, the boat all set up), consider them a pilot that has just ejected themselves from their plane.

Can the navigator and mechanic control the plane, will they ever recover the pilot. ... etc.

Too many factors to discuss.

And no need to discuss anything if you are properly tethered.

A tether that does not allow you to end up overboard. Much easier to set up than any MOB maneuver.

b.
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Old 15-09-2016, 08:44   #126
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Yes. It all has to be taken into account. Bay waters even on a blustery days are different from typical ocean/crossing run.

Back to the topic, I once heard an allegory which seems to stick: if someone goes overboard from an ocean going boat in full swing (high winds, the boat all set up), consider them a pilot that has just ejected themselves from their plane.

Can the navigator and mechanic control the plane, will they ever recover the pilot. ... etc.

Too many factors to discuss.

And no need to discuss anything if you are properly tethered.

A tether that does not allow you to end up overboard. Much easier to set up than any MOB maneuver.

b.
Absolutely agree with the importance of a properly installed and used jackline, harness, and tether.

RULE 1: Keep everyone in the boat.
RULE 2: Keep the water out.

Follow these two Golden Rules and it is not possible for anyone to drown.

Effective MOB procedures are only important when someone has not followed Golden Rule # 1.
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Old 15-09-2016, 11:25   #127
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
To those who say 'heave to' I suggest you DO. Then come back, let's discuss some more.

I think the technique is OK, just takes a lot lot LOT of training.

b.
I disagree.

No special tools or training required at all.

For any reasonable size cruising boat, a life ring on 50 ft floating line is minimum mandatory safety equipment. If not mounted, attached to the boat, and ready to deploy in an instant, fix it so it is; basic seamanship.

The technique I have described, requires only very basic sailing skills:

1. Tacking
2. Jibing
3. Rounding Mark
4. Heaving To

The next most important basic sailing skill is...

5. Reefing.

If one is not reasonably adept at doing these 5 things, I suggest not taking out crew who may not be aware you are putting them at risk because you don't have basic sailing skills.

Instead, take lessons or crew with someone who is adept, until you have gained these basic skills.

Don't crew for someone who isn't, because they may not be able to safely return you to shore.

Once adept at reefing and sailing in reefed conditions, one will learn that the boat is very well balanced, stable, fast, and a pleasure to sail in all conditions likely to be encountered short of heavy weather (40+ knots).

For most boats (there are rare exceptions) to heave to in the conditions one is sailing in (assuming sails are properly trimmed and/or reefed as necessary):

1. Tack without releasing foresail sheet.
2. As soon as vessel comes head thru wind, turn back to windward, with appropriate speed to head up but not return back through wind again.
3. Ease the mainsheet to balance.
4. Lock the helm, still turned to head to windward.

When adept, heaving to takes about 5 seconds. If you have just rounded the MOB dragging the life ring or life sling, if they are conscious, they now have the best chance to grab and keep hold of the line. They are now re-attached to the boat, which is a very important step. The boat will not be pitching wildly, suddenly fall off, gain speed, and force them to let go BECAUSE IT IS HOVE TO.

If they are unconscious, you can tether to the alternate life ring or life sling to enter the water (remaining attached to the boat) so you can get them into the life sling, pull yourself back to the boat and use the swim ladder (you remembered to deploy before leaving the boat, and if not, pull the release line that surely you have rigged to deploy from the water) to reboard, and rig the hoisting system (usually a spare halyard or outboard crane) to the life sling line.
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Old 15-09-2016, 12:40   #128
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post

I disagree.

No special tools or training required at all.

For any reasonable size cruising boat, a life ring on 50 ft floating line is minimum mandatory safety equipment. If not mounted, attached to the boat, and ready to deploy in an instant, fix it so it is; basic seamanship.

The technique I have described, requires only very basic sailing skills:

1. Tacking
2. Jibing
3. Rounding Mark
4. Heaving To

The next most important basic sailing skill is...

5. Reefing.

If one is not reasonably adept at doing these 5 things, I suggest not taking out crew who may not be aware you are putting them at risk because you don't have basic sailing skills.

Instead, take lessons or crew with someone who is adept, until you have gained these basic skills.
(...)
Maybe.

But the OP asked about falling overboard while tethered and then trying to pull oneself back in.

That's why I tried to pull our discussion towards the proposed subject.

Once the tether snaps or the person opens the fuse ... this or that MOB technique will only depend on what the conditions are and what skills are in place.

(BTW IMHO starting up the engine and coming back to your MOB beats any complex sailing maneuvers).

Cheers,
b.
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Old 15-09-2016, 13:10   #129
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
(BTW IMHO starting up the engine and coming back to your MOB beats any complex sailing maneuvers).
Cheers,
b.
Ok who saw the first Indiana Jones movie? Don't know why but that reminded me of the scene where, when faced with a long and difficult sword fight, Indiana instead opts for the gun to settle the whole thing more quickly...
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Old 15-09-2016, 13:43   #130
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Maybe.

But the OP asked about falling overboard while tethered and then trying to pull oneself back in.

That's why I tried to pull our discussion towards the proposed subject.

Once the tether snaps or the person opens the fuse ... this or that MOB technique will only depend on what the conditions are and what skills are in place.

(BTW IMHO starting up the engine and coming back to your MOB beats any complex sailing maneuvers).

Cheers,
b.
What complex sailing maneuver?

1. Tack
2. Gybe
3. Round a Mark
4. Heave To

These are all the most basic of sailing maneuvers.
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Old 15-09-2016, 13:48   #131
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Maybe.

But the OP asked about falling overboard while tethered and then trying to pull oneself back in.

That's why I tried to pull our discussion towards the proposed subject.

Once the tether snaps or the person opens the fuse ... this or that MOB technique will only depend on what the conditions are and what skills are in place.

(BTW IMHO starting up the engine and coming back to your MOB beats any complex sailing maneuvers).

Cheers,
b.
What complex sailing maneuver?

1. Tack
2. Gybe
3. Round a Mark
4. Heave To

These are all the most basic of sailing maneuvers.
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Old 15-09-2016, 15:41   #132
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
What complex sailing maneuver?

1. Tack
2. Gybe
3. Round a Mark
4. Heave To

These are all the most basic of sailing maneuvers.
I will somewhat disagree to heaving to as being one of the most basic sailing maneuvers. I have seen most certified sailors (ASA, RYA, etc. coming without any understanding, let alone skills, in this respect).

No maneuver is too difficult in plain conditions.

However, not all MOB situations happen in plain conditions. You can also get a MOB in fast offshore sailing, going in full blown trade wind situation or even in conditions stronger than that. At times quick gybing it is simply not an option, at other times you may find it difficult to tack into the prevailing sea and wind.

So we each see the situation from our specific perspectives. Mine is you stay attached to the boat or else that's that. My leash is too short to allow for me being dragged by the boat.

This is how I sorted out OP's original query.

I do not see any disagreement just different takes resulting from different ways we do our sailing.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 16-09-2016, 04:28   #133
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I will somewhat disagree to heaving to as being one of the most basic sailing maneuvers. I have seen most certified sailors (ASA, RYA, etc. coming without any understanding, let alone skills, in this respect).

No maneuver is too difficult in plain conditions.

However, not all MOB situations happen in plain conditions. You can also get a MOB in fast offshore sailing, going in full blown trade wind situation or even in conditions stronger than that. At times quick gybing it is simply not an option, at other times you may find it difficult to tack into the prevailing sea and wind.

So we each see the situation from our specific perspectives. Mine is you stay attached to the boat or else that's that. My leash is too short to allow for me being dragged by the boat.

This is how I sorted out OP's original query.

I do not see any disagreement just different takes resulting from different ways we do our sailing.

Cheers,
b.
A competent sailor should be able to safely operate a properly found sailboat in open water in 20 knots in the average 20 ft boat, 30 knots in the average 30 ft, 40 knots in the average 40 ft. (Add another 10 knots if the skipper is "fairly experienced".)

These aren't "extreme" conditions. These are conditions "likely to be encountered".

Any "sailor" who doesn't understand the basic principles of heaving to, let alone being able to execute it in any conditions where the vessel can be safely operated (as indicated above) is not "competent" in my opinion, "certified" or otherwise.

Tacking, gybing, rounding a mark, reefing, and heaving to, are very basic and essential sailing skills. Anyone in open water that can't competently execute these basic maneuvers in the conditions described above, simply shouldn't be there.

Forget MOB recovery discussions, they shouldn't even be sailing the boat.

Is it that people are relying on boat size rather than sailing skills to keep them out trouble? Sorry, that is just not safe. Possessing basic sailing skills is essential to safety, I don't care what size of boat.
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Old 16-09-2016, 05:03   #134
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Out of curiosity Ramblinrod,
how much offshore experience do you have... meaning trans ocean?
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Old 16-09-2016, 07:34   #135
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Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

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Out of curiosity Ramblinrod,
how much offshore experience do you have... meaning trans ocean?
Zero.

The MOB recovery methods I have described are not reliant on the size of the body of water.

The vast majority of sailboats will never cross an ocean.

They still carry crew that may have to be rescued someday.

Basic sailing skills and reliable MOB recovery, in conditions likely to be encountered, are essential in any body of water.

Relying on vessel size and the engine instead of basic sailing skills is bad practice anywhere.

I would be far more willing to cross an ocean with a competent crew in an engineless boat than I would with an incompetent crew that couldn't effectively maneuver the boat without the key on.
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