Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-09-2016, 07:28   #61
I promise to put my pants on
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 11,424
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Not convinced this is plausible without actually mocking it up on my 2 masted schooner..... just attracted to the idea of an added safety line that could pull you up over the side
Well post a copy of the video. But think you are going to be hanging over the side hanging from the top of the mast getting slammed against the hull over and over.

We wear our harnesses at night and during conditions that we feel getting someone back on the boat would be hard. BUT, when it comes right down to it if someone goes over the side in anything but calm conditions the odds are they are going to die IMO.
__________________

__________________
stop blowing smoke up my rear, blow it at the sails instead
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 08:34   #62
Registered User
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 3,037
Images: 23
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

It's actually a very good drill to see how quickly you can round up, drop the sails and come to a stop. May come in handy someday.....
__________________

__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 08:47   #63
I promise to put my pants on
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 11,424
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
It's actually a very good drill to see how quickly you can round up, drop the sails and come to a stop. May come in handy someday.....
Might

But there is a big difference between throwing a float out while in the open on a calm sunny day and coming around and getting it with a boat hook drill, and doing the same at night in 6-10 foot choppy seas where you have to get a person back onto the boat before they either drown or get beat to death by the boat.

Just saying.
__________________
stop blowing smoke up my rear, blow it at the sails instead
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 10:01   #64
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,210
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Well post a copy of the video. But think you are going to be hanging over the side hanging from the top of the mast getting slammed against the hull over and over.

We wear our harnesses at night and during conditions that we feel getting someone back on the boat would be hard. BUT, when it comes right down to it if someone goes over the side in anything but calm conditions the odds are they are going to die IMO.
It is scary that someone carrying crew could have so little confidence they could successfully perform an MOB rescue.
__________________
Rod Brandon
Sheen Marine
ramblinrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 10:20   #65
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,210
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
It's actually a very good drill to see how quickly you can round up, drop the sails and come to a stop. May come in handy someday.....
May wish to reconsider dropping sails.

The chance of a successful MOB recovery diminishes with every second lost.

Our MOB recovery execution is to:

1. Hit the chartplotter MOB button. (1/2 second)
2. Toss the MOB pole. (1 second) (MOB swims toward it.)
3. If extra crew aboard (rare for us), one assigned to point at MOB and never lose sight)
4. Turn 180 degrees as fast as possible.
5. Approach MOB location as quickly as possible (motor sailing if dead upwind instead of tacking away).
6. Heave to at MOB.
7. Deploy boarding ladder.
8. a) Toss life ring to MOB (if conscious).
8. b) Use life ring to carry life sling to MOB (if unconscious).
9. Assist boarding.
10. Secure MOB in safe location.
11. Apply first aid (if necessary).
12. Retrieve MOB pole.
13. Cancel MOB on chartplotter.

Reasons:

1. One can spend way too much time dousing sails and lose sight of the MOB.
2. Untied doused sails in high wind is dangerous.
3. Pitching due to no sails in heavy seas makes MOB recovery very difficult.
4. Only way to move the boat is to run engine. (Lines in water may create another hazard.)
__________________
Rod Brandon
Sheen Marine
ramblinrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 11:21   #66
I promise to put my pants on
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 11,424
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
It is scary that someone carrying crew could have so little confidence they could successfully perform an MOB rescue.
More scary to me that someone could be such an arrogant idiot that they assume they can in bad conditions! I live in a practical world, you appear to live in a book world and can quote from it.
__________________
stop blowing smoke up my rear, blow it at the sails instead
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 11:38   #67
Liveaboard Cruiser
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,310
Send a message via Skype™ to SV THIRD DAY
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

We always assumed that if under sail and someone fell overboard, the procedure was to drop the sails and start the engine to go pick them up. I don't care how good a "sailor" you are, in a life and death situation, you don't play around with the sails and you fire up the iron genny and go get your crew. Now when we lost our transmission and had to learn how to sail our boat across the Sea of Cortez our "caution" level about falling overboard was much heightened!
__________________
Rich Boren Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water Makers
Technautics CoolBlue Refrigeration

SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 11:58   #68
Registered User
 
leftbrainstuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: San Francisco and Australia
Boat: Liberty 458
Posts: 1,865
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Tethers should be as short as possible. If your tether allows you to go overboard or get caught up then its not a good tether IMHO.

The sailing industry could learn a lot from others who work at height. Most of the tethers and attachments I see are based on convenience of attachment rather than good human factors design.

Even well designed boat tethers are problematic. The load vectors are awful, the trip hazards mind boggling and the reduced utility you have when tethered just ridiculous. In engineering terms it's a design SNAFU.

On our vessel we've converted a canvas dodger to a fully enclosed rigid cockpit dodger. We've also re engineered our running rigging to avoid the need to work on deck. In this context the best tether is no tether.

We still maintain a full boat tether system but the main line is high and not on the deck. An on deck line with even a short tether will not keep you on the boat. It's also a tripping hazard.

Thankfully we haven't needed to use ours in any sort of weather. Reading storm stories highlights how much that luck seems to affect survival rates. As an engineer I abhor gambling as a design constraint. Stay inside and stay on the boat is something we can control much better than tethering on deck.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
leftbrainstuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 12:26   #69
Registered User
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 3,037
Images: 23
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
May wish to reconsider dropping sails.

The chance of a successful MOB recovery diminishes with every second lost.

Our MOB recovery execution is to:

1. Hit the chartplotter MOB button. (1/2 second)
2. Toss the MOB pole. (1 second) (MOB swims toward it.)
3. If extra crew aboard (rare for us), one assigned to point at MOB and never lose sight)
4. Turn 180 degrees as fast as possible.
5. Approach MOB location as quickly as possible (motor sailing if dead upwind instead of tacking away).
6. Heave to at MOB.
7. Deploy boarding ladder.
8. a) Toss life ring to MOB (if conscious).
8. b) Use life ring to carry life sling to MOB (if unconscious).
9. Assist boarding.
10. Secure MOB in safe location.
11. Apply first aid (if necessary).
12. Retrieve MOB pole.
13. Cancel MOB on chartplotter.

Reasons:

1. One can spend way too much time dousing sails and lose sight of the MOB.
2. Untied doused sails in high wind is dangerous.
3. Pitching due to no sails in heavy seas makes MOB recovery very difficult.
4. Only way to move the boat is to run engine. (Lines in water may create another hazard.)
Oh, of course. But I put number 2 before 1 in my practice and I am with Third Day too, your step 4 should be(IMO) drop sails and start engine. Keeping the main up is ok if you are sure you aren't going to knock yourself out when you gybe. When you round up on someone it is easy for a main to take over and pull you away from the target if you aren't dead on, and then you may have to hassle with it while trying to retrieve someone. If you let the sheet go then you have the hazard of a boom flopping around while you are trying to work too. It is a great thing to practice though, we all should, for that time when we have to retrieve someone and the engine doesn't work. For me I have found that if you time it right and you are ready (and not too much freeboard) you can get a clip on them as you drift up in irons and then put the helm over to the opposite tack, let her heave-to (the jib is backed) and as the boat settles you hoist them aboard. It helps to have a fool proof hoist system ready of course, though its amazing what a little adrenaline can do in these situations. This does take practice in a variety of seas and wind speeds, but its kind of fun when you get the hang of it.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 12:54   #70
Registered User
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 3,037
Images: 23
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

I should add, as I am sure most know, that this gets exponentially more difficult to do as wind picks up. Smaller boats just will not be able to sail up to a target very well in much over 20 knots and 3 or 4 foot seas. Great thing to practice on a windy day....
with a cushion or MOB pole, not a live one!
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 13:05   #71
Registered User
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 3,037
Images: 23
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I hear you but not sure if that's the same.

I am thinking if i went over., with the length and angle I am dangling about half way up the hull.

That would allow me to be holding on and my weight is bending the halyard over the top lifeline if I'm over the side .

Not convinced this is plausible without actually mocking it up on my 2 masted schooner..... just attracted to the idea of an added safety line that could pull you up over the side
I am imagining the boat is sailing, heeled over 15 degrees or so,with autopilot or vane driving, and you fall on the leeward side and now you are hanging, maybe dragging, out 10 or so feet from the boat.... (that was my coffee in the morning thought!)
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 13:43   #72
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 988
Images: 5
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akapeterc View Post
This has got me thinking the lines that came with my boat I presumed just ran down the side of the boat which in theory would be useless to stop me going over the side anyone got any pictures or ideas where they will run them so they're more in the centre of the boat I was thinking running from the front of the boat crossing them around the mast but from there I'm not sure
I run the (red port, green starboard) jack lines center-line from a pad-eye a couple feet aft of the bow to a pad-eye a couple feet short of the transom. My boat is a center cockpit, so I run the lines over the hard windscreen and aft. I try to walk windward of the cabins and mast. One goal for me is to be able to walk the length of the boat without unclipping... I have a bit of an issue getting around my traveler which is mounted atop the aft cabin.
__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 13:58   #73
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 988
Images: 5
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
It's actually a very good drill to see how quickly you can round up, drop the sails and come to a stop. May come in handy someday.....
I agree wholeheartedly... it's been too long since we practiced.

I was taught to round up, throw the life sling, and round up so that we are sailing into the wind and heave to rather than drop sails.
__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 14:01   #74
Registered User
 
Kokanee's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Adelaide Australia
Boat: Cuddles 30ft Motor Sailer
Posts: 190
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Jack lines should run down the centerline of the boat, so with a 3-4 foot tether there is no way to go overboard. Put some thought into the design and use of jacklines well before you need to use them.

IMO - Clipping on to the toe rail increases, rather than decreases, the risk of injury or drowning.
__________________
Kokanee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2016, 14:38   #75
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,210
Re: Has anyone ever fallen over tethered and tried to pull themselves back in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Oh, of course. But I put number 2 before 1 in my practice and I am with Third Day too, your step 4 should be(IMO) drop sails and start engine. Keeping the main up is ok if you are sure you aren't going to knock yourself out when you gybe. When you round up on someone it is easy for a main to take over and pull you away from the target if you aren't dead on, and then you may have to hassle with it while trying to retrieve someone. If you let the sheet go then you have the hazard of a boom flopping around while you are trying to work too. It is a great thing to practice though, we all should, for that time when we have to retrieve someone and the engine doesn't work. For me I have found that if you time it right and you are ready (and not too much freeboard) you can get a clip on them as you drift up in irons and then put the helm over to the opposite tack, let her heave-to (the jib is backed) and as the boat settles you hoist them aboard. It helps to have a fool proof hoist system ready of course, though its amazing what a little adrenaline can do in these situations. This does take practice in a variety of seas and wind speeds, but its kind of fun when you get the hang of it.
How long does your system take?

Lets assume double-handing, 20 knots, 6 ft seas on the beam, and you were aware the instant the MOB went over and reacted instantly.

1. Shift transmission to neutral. 1/2 second
2. Set throttle. 1/2 second
3. Turn key. 1 second.
4. Shift into forward. 1/2 second.
5. Adjust throttle. 1 sec
6. Turn up wind. 5 seconds.
7. Set auto helm. 5 seconds.
8. Release foresail sheet. 2 seconds.
9. Furl in foresail. 10 seconds
10. Secure furling line. 2 seconds.
11. Release main halyard and drop to boom. 15 seconds.
12. Tie off if no lazy jacks or Dutchman. 30 seconds.
13. Release autohelm 3 seconds.
14. Turn vessel back toward MOB. 5 seconds.

Few people single-handing can accomplish this that fast, even with adrenalin running at max. And then what if something goes wrong, like a furler binds or a sheet or a halyard snags, something gets caught in the lazy jacks, etc.?

(When I single-hand on race nights, this takes much closer to 10 minutes on average.)

But lets assume everything goes perfectly, you just sailed away from the MOB for about 80 seconds.

You just sailed about 800 ft away from the MOB (if all went extremely fast and well), and set your vessel up to be the least stable it can be to perform an MOB rescue.

At 800 ft, on a clear day, in 6 foot seas, your will see a head bobbing about 1 foot above the water, for maybe 1 second every minute. Don't blink. Now lets add the rain that made the decks slippery that caused the MOB to loose footing, now lets make it night.

I hate to say this, but you probably just killed your crew.

Instead, as soon as you notice the MOB, turn the boat around.

5 seconds.

Now you are 50 feet away from the MOB. Sail back and heave to. Now you are at the MOB and the boat is as stable as it can possibly be in 20 knots and 6 foot seas, to facilitate getting them back aboard.

If one can't maneuver the boat where they want it to be, while under sail in 20 knots and 6 foot seas, they shouldn't be in charge IMHO (in anything more than a small inland lake).
__________________

__________________
Rod Brandon
Sheen Marine
ramblinrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Has anyone ever tried this... miketaz25 Fishing, Recreation & Fun 5 06-12-2014 09:19
Propeller has Fallen Off! Allan M Propellers & Drive Systems 17 13-11-2014 23:53
Volvo Folding Prop has 'fallen off' capbuckandpippy Propellers & Drive Systems 14 02-09-2012 09:30
To Pull or Not to Pull . . . That Is My Question ! BILLYBYEPOLAR General Sailing Forum 4 12-11-2010 14:26
Anyone recognise themselves? swagman Off Topic Forum 3 24-08-2006 15:24


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.