GUNS

[sneuman]

excellent article, Gord!

[Michaele]

P.S. I am not trying to start a gun debate here so please dont start telling me not to take my guns or all obout the safe alternitives.Like I said I AM going to take my guns

Well I just hope you are very very good and have a big big crew. When I was attacked by pirates in the Gulf of Aden there were 3 boats each with a crew of 5 or 6 all armed with AK's Uzi, rocket propelled grenade plus an assortment of hand guns and knives. Now whilst they were only intending robbery they open fired over my head and the boat sailing in company with me.. If I had fired back then for sure the aim would have been lowered and I would have had 15 to 18 guns from several directions shooting at me... And they all knew how to handle their weapons and from more recent reports 'killing people' was not an issue for them.... So I just hope you and your family are really numerous, have heavy machine guns and rocket propelled grenades or you are going to be seriously out gunned.. Make very certain that you kill every one of the enemy, even the wounded and sink their boats without trace because if the authorities find you have attacked and killed 'innocent fishermen' (who also have the right to bear arms) they will put you in jail and throw away the key! Cos the local authorities almost certainly receive a 'kick back' from the pirates...

Fair winds and good hunting

Michael

PS you can read the details on my web site sailing - attack -pirates page

Kudos GORD. As always, very concise and to the point.

[Pblais]

Michael,

The scenario you describe has for 5 centuries been the case with piracy at sea. Large forces with overwhelming power to provide a credible threat of total destruction.

It was common against the East India Companies and the Moslem travelers on the annual pilgrimage dring the late 17th century. Same scenario with modern weapons. Most piracy of old was conducted without shots ever fired. The same is true today.

[eskfreedom]

I'm not only going to take my guns for security but because I like them they are fun to shoot ...a lot of fun.Since I am going to sea to be free. I don't see any reason to deprive my self of anything that I like and is fun.I'm going to put up with all the bull crap and take them. Piracy is one of my least worries.I really doubt that I will ever need to brandish my weapons.In my opinion you got really lucky.With the way foreigners hate Americans now days they just assume kill you and sink your boat.Which brings to mind an article I read in Cruising World. Two sailboats off Yemen were attacked by two boats with ten men armed with AK's. One ex-marine with a shotgun killed four and disabled one of the boats.The boats started firing on the sailer's without warning and were prepared to kill every one.Every one came out unharmed except some bullet holes in the boats.I hate to think what would of happened if that Marine hadn't had that 12 gage.I don't think but know for a fact that if I was in your scenario my wife and I could have detoured all three boats away with two semi-auto rifles.Like I said in the beginning I am going to take my guns.

[CaptainK]

Well esk.

I would go along and take your guns. But make sure you get gun locks for your guns. So that the questionable officals can not test fire your gun, cause it a "Macho" thing in those South American countries.

Delcare the weapons at every port.

If you could. Build a gun cabinet/locker inside the main cabin, or somewhere inside. And that way. In some places the officals could put a lock or something onto the door. So that you can not use your guns in their port? At least I believe I read that some where?

[mohave_steve]

Gord,

Thank you for answering sooo many questions in you well written post. I do wonder if you may be able to clarify for me Canada's definition of "Prohibited Firearm" ?

On my last visit to Canada I brought my .22 target pistol with me and duly declared it and asked what permits & regulations I needed to comply with? The following steps were prescribed:
1) Turn over the $700 pistol for destruction
2) Spend 8hrs in a cell.
3) Pay $2000+ fine

I entered Canada equipped with some mis-information from two fellow travelers who told me "We take our guns up there all the time - No problem"

Well, the RCMP (dressed in full SWAT gear) informed me that the .22cal pistol is (no kidding) "The favorite of Assassins and especially dangerous"

Based on that experience I would recommend EXTREME caution to anyone considering transporting firearms or ammunition while visiting any other country.

As far as arming yourself for protection against piracy I think the best defense is avoidance. However... If confronted with armed pirates I would much rather be armed with my 1911 and I also firmly believe that it is quite likely that those accustomed to preying on unarmed victims could be discourage from pursuit if the intended victim shows the ability & willingness to shoot back...

[Michaele]

Whilst some Blue Water yachts do carry weapons - and the vast majority of those are American, they are continually having to hand them in for safe keeping in every country they visit - which can be very tedious and time consuming. If they do not hand them into customs/police officials they do, as the previous poster states risk heavy fines and imprisonment.

Having a 'hidy hole' for the weapons is also a bit self defeating - firstly customs officers are very used to 'rummaging' yachts for drugs so finding a few guns is well withing their capabilities. In European waters having a customs team, of a dozen or so, go through a yacht is not an uncommon experience. In the Caribbean because of the drugs issues it happens and the French in the South Pacific are very caparable officers.

From my own experience of being robbed by pirates, the moment of differentiating between being approached by innocent boats (happens on daily if not more frequent basis) and realising they are pirates is seconds - only when the guns come out and they open fire do you know.. You need to be able to get at your weapons pretty quick.

It is foolish to imagine that the pirates are not as good as you are with their guns or are cowards. From what I saw they handled their weapons with professional skill and because they believe in their god were not afraid.

The two yachts that shot back with heavy gauge shot guns in the Gulf of Aden actually thwarted the attack (I think by the same lot that got me) by ramming and sinking one of the 3 boats... and running for it.. The problem with that was that in addition to the armed pirates on board there were around 30 innocent people who were being smuggled from Somalia to the Yemen. As a direct result of the ramming 30 men women and small children died. The other two pirate boats picked up their 'mates' but had no room for the others so left them to drown.....

I have no moral objection to bearing arms - or indeed to killing the enemy but I have to believe I can win - not get killed myself - and I have to believe I am not shooting somebodies innocent husband or son or child... very difficult when pirates and fisher folk shop in the same clothing store..

Michael

[hellosailor]

"Build a gun cabinet/locker inside the main cabin," Officially known as the "Ship's Armory" and remember, you should neither confirm nor deny the status of any nuclear weapons or power systems aboard your vessel. The contents of the armory is classified.<G>
In some ports you may be allowed to keep contraband in a "bonded locker", that is, a cabinet or other place that can be securely locked and sealed with a customs seal.
Since trigger locks often use a very small range of keys (they're designed more to keep kids out than adults) you may also want to carry a cable lock of a higher grade, and run it through the barrel or breech, as you can.
As a card carrying paranoid, I believe that IF a weapon needs to be secured and stored, it's easy enough to use a trigger lock (which you'd have anyway) a breech/barrel cable (cheap and effective) and then to hand it over in a pad-locked case, so no one is tempted by the SIGHT of it.
But international rules...make real sure you know them before you go, in writing, or be prepared to wave bye-bye.

Michaele, I too feel for the refugees--but aren't they FUNDING those pirates? They may be in a hard place, but I'd be damned if I'd place my own life or property in danger when the people FUNDING my attackers were the price of collateral damage. I'd fully agree with ramming them, and afterwards ask the gods to have mercy on them if they deserved it.

[Michaele]

I am not certain they consciously funding the pirates - I think they are/were (the 30 involved are now dead) simply trying to escape from Somalia where a pretty awful regime has got caught up in violence, killing, hunger and devastation that makes life pretty impossible for the majority of ordinary people trying to exist in that country - just across the Gulf of Aden is the Yemen which is pretty wealthy and law abiding and if they can make it there they will have the 'possibility' of a better life - Mexicans and America..

In a way that is the greatest problem with weapons on a yacht - how do you recognise the fisherman wanting to sell fish, the refugee, the illegal immigrant, the civilian trying to be friendly, the customs or police authority in plain (very plain) clothes wanting to search your vessel - from the pirates out to rob you?

Also as in NY city or London or ... there are gangs of 'opportunists' who are engaged in other 'profitable' activities - people smuggling - drug smuggling - who see a passing tourist boat and mug it... Out gun it. out number it and just take what there is that is easily available... bit like in NY when you are in a side street that you should not be in and 5 or 6 really big blokes with knives and guns approach you for you wallet... do you pull a shooter or pull your wallet?

Michael

[GordMay]

So ... how close do should I allow unsavory (by our/your standards) strangers approach before I:
~ display my weapon (implicit threat) ?
~ warn them off (explicit threat) ?
~ shoot them ?
Would I have been wise to offer any (implied or explicit) warnings at all (were they actually dangerous) ?

[hellosailor]

"I am not certain they consciously funding the pirates "
And the many immigrant invaders paying huge fees to snakeheads and such aren't conciously funding criminals...but they are very much aware that they are paying criminals and so enabling them.
Richard Nixon swore to the end he was innocent, it was just coincidence that all those folks surrounding him were crooks. Could be. Doesn't strike me as likely though.

"do you pull a shooter or pull your wallet?" In NYC, you'd better pull a gun or grenade, because the NYPD have a record of shooting people who pull wallets, cell phones, all sorts of unconventional "weapons".

Yes, defending yourself can get you killed. Rolling over and not defending yourself, can get you hurt even worse as you empower the criminals who "know" that you've been trained to let them have ther way with you.

When Miami had a crime wave of armed robberies against foreign tourists, the M-D PD did some interviews with the robbers they did catch. "WHy did you follow and rob tourists from overseas?" ''Because we knew they had flown in and couldn't be carrying guns or weapons, it was safer to rob them." LITERALLY.
When Florida passed a "shall carry" concealed carry law, armed robberies overall went down while they went up in the rest of the US. And again, prison interviews got the same answer; It is too dangerous to rob someone if there's a CHANCE he might be armed and fight back. So the robbers switched to burglaries of empty homes, because that way they couldn't be shot.
This whole philosophy of "don't fight you might get hurt" is just more well-intentioned bleeding heart liberal BS that sounds real good--but is proven again and again to produce exactly the opposite effect as intended.

My only problem with arming a boat, is that it is just about impossible to do it AND remain "legal". A sad comment on governments around the world, especially those that sanction piracy and those (like ours) who forget they once would not allow this.

Attack a Roman Legionnaire, and your village wound up being burned, plowed under, and salted so nothing would ever grow there again. (And salt was damned expensive.) Might not have been fair to the rest of the village, but it certainly discouraged attacks on Legionnaires. Made the villagers REAL reluctant about harboring anyone who might attack them, too.

"What do you call a liberal after the first time he's been mugged?"
A conservative.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

My only problem with arming a boat, is that it is just about impossible to do it AND remain "legal". A sad comment on governments around the world, especially those that sanction piracy and those (like ours) who forget they once would not allow this.

Our Government is very sad but none of us carry guns, police included. We like it that way. We don't tend to shoot ourselves often, we are more into bludgening each other or running each other over while DUI.

You are welcome, and legal, to sail in here with them but you must surrender them to the Police on arrival. They are given back when you leave. No point trying to hide them. With the computor systems talking to each other our Customs will know you have them on board before you arrive anyway, as most would these days.

Don't pull the 'neither confirm or deny' here. It does not work for the US Military or anyone else's, cruisers included.

No point carrying them anyway down this end of the world. The only nasties to fend off would be the odd thirsty guy looking to scab a beer or government officals obviously.

I would think carrying guns these days would only be a complete hassle 99% of the time and probably creat a lot more nasty situations that they would prevent.

I swore I wasn't gonna get involved in this one but..

Eskfreedom didn't ask for advise on whether he should carry them and I think that should be respected but Michaele, you just couldn't help yourself could you. Why the intolerance? Lighten up! No one is critising you for not carrying a gun. Another problem you have is that your facts seem to be massaged as needed to suit. Your account of the pirate attack involving the two boats, one of which rammed a pirate boat is total nonsense. That was the vessels Mahdi and Gandalf. They did not have guns (plural) FACT, Mahdi had one shot gun. FACT, the yachts were fired on first. FACT, there were no refugees of any kind! But gee, it did sound good eh? Never let facts get in the way of a good sermon...

The Seven Seas Cruising association awarded the crews involved (no, not the poor pirates) with the same medals previously awarded to folk like Eric Hiscock and the Pardeys.

Hellosailor... SOOO true!! every word. good one mate!

Cheers

Bob

[eskfreedom]

Like I said in the beginning I AM going to take my guns.Thanks again Gord. Thank you Bob for setting Michael straight on that story.