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Old 18-04-2009, 13:03   #121
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Blue Sovereign, in your attempts to insult and malign David Old Jersey, rather than respond calmly and rationally, you have likely missed his point...... The answer then is to either eliminate the root causes (which seems unlikely to occur in this society), or to make piracy unprofitable. Brad
Brad, with due respect you are also being an Intellectual Mastubator! I did not "miss the point", nor have I responded irrationally or angrily. To the contary, I am being what you and your mate Jersey have not been: "pragmatic".

You summed up my position in your quote, and had you taken the time to read my earlier post you would have noted that I proposed we limit a military response to the pirate's boats and their mother ship(s). However we DO implement a military (i.e. naval-airforce) response.

If you and Jersey believe your intellectually articulating the "woes of the world" will somehow change the status quo, then may I suggest you both put your yachts where your mouths are: sail your yachts to Somalia and volunteer to start "making a difference". With due respect I doubt neither of you will do so! THAT's what makes you both "Intellectual Masturbators".

I've sailed more than 1/2 around the world, and have lived in, for a significant length of time, several of its "3rd world" parts. I am well aware of the "inequities of life". As I posted somewhere on this subject, wake up and smell the coffee, this is not a poverty issue but a "terrorist/organised crime" one.

I might be forgiven for thinking both you and Jersey would both be quite happy to know while sailing toward the Suez Canal or the Seychelles, that some pirate-organised crime's pawn-terrorist's pawn will be thinking more than twice before attacking YOUR yacht, because they realise it is highly likely it would precipitate both their pirate skiff and their mother ship will become target practice for some helicopter warship or a F16, respectively. Now THAT'S pragmatism based on experience living in the REAL world!
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Old 18-04-2009, 13:38   #122
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World cruisers, that is real mariners -- which means just a few of us in fact, and the rest of us only dreaming about it, but still -- ought to know something about the weather, something about astronomy, quite a lot about geography, and I think something about history, especially where it bears on seafaring. I personally think this is a great thread.



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At this point I'm wondering what it has to do with Cruising. Perhaps the Hostory Channle wouod be a better venue. We really do want to be what we are about. Yes, we are all alive and living on the same planet. We really do want to be about boating.
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Old 18-04-2009, 13:51   #123
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Then they let the pirates go! What is that about? What kind of Dutch law would demand they let the pirates go after they have taken 20 fishermen hostage and attacked a tanker? Sounds to me like the politicians just don't want to deal with reality.
The pirates were set free because under Dutch law they could not be held at sea under the circumstances in which they were captured.

NATO Lieutenant Commander Alexandre Fernandes, speaking on board the Portuguese warship Corte-Real, said: "Nato does not have a detainment policy. The warship must follow its national law.
They can only arrest them if the pirates are from the Netherlands, the victims are from the Netherlands, or if they are in Netherlands waters."

France 24 | Dutch commandos rescue hostages, new vessel seized | France 24

Double Dutch: Commandos capture Somali pirates and free 20 hostages ... but release the bandits because they're not from the Netherlands | Mail Online
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Old 18-04-2009, 13:56   #124
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DF,

It's because of the Law. From an article in today's Washington Post...

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The commandos briefly detained and questioned the seven gunmen, he told Reuters, but had no legal power to arrest them. "NATO does not have a detainment policy. The warship must follow its national law," he said.

"They can only arrest them if the pirates are from the Netherlands, the victims are from the Netherlands, or if they are in Netherlands waters."
EDIT: Heh! Gord's faster on the button than I am.
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Old 18-04-2009, 14:07   #125
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Quote:
know while sailing toward the Suez Canal or the Seychelles, that some pirate-organised crime's pawn-terrorist's pawn will be thinking more than twice before attacking YOUR yacht because they realise it is highly likely it would precipitate both their pirate skiff and their mother ship will become target practice for some helicopter warship or a F16, respectively. Now THAT'S pragmatism based on experience living in the REAL world!
No, it is fantasy not pragmantism to expect that such coverage will ever exist. It's an area of water about the size of the USA east of the Mississippi River. Tracking boats that don't even show up on radar is not possible. Escorting pleasure craft is beyond fantasy. The fastest response time under better circustances is hours away soonest. There is no credible response. The pirates ran out of fuel.
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Old 18-04-2009, 15:14   #126
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Paul ... do this math instead:

Once a call of a pending attack is received you have an identified specific location. Having that you can send a helicopter gunship or a F16 ... they do not take hours to arrive on the scene.

That aside, should an attack be simply repelled, the attackers can be tracked by satellite imagery back to the mother-ship, so that "target practice" can begin ...

All that is required is the diverting of a small percentage of "existing in that region resources" ... something which will not be done until enough of the commercial shipping industry and general public (i.e. boating/yachting community) yell and scream sufficiently.
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Old 18-04-2009, 17:02   #127
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Then they let the pirates go! What is that about? What kind of Dutch law would demand they let the pirates go after they have taken 20 fishermen hostage and attacked a tanker? Sounds to me like the politicians just don't want to deal with reality .
The Dutch are sticklers for the law.

Do you remember the Rwandan massacre of Tutsis by the Hutus? 500,000 people were butchered in 1994 and maybe up to 1 million or 20% of the population.

The UN had soldiers there. Watching but not interfering. Dutch.

Sometimes courage is to disobey orders.


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Old 18-04-2009, 17:19   #128
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THAT's what makes you both "Intellectual Masturbators".
I think the phrase you may be looking for is "thinking"

Please do not confuse understanding a problem (or trying to) with being against a harsh approach (I wasn't joking about the yard arm and heads on stick - but then again although anti iraq war, once started my peace plan did involve crucifictions - I honestly beleive less folk would have died, both theirs and ours - but that's another thread. and forum ). Indeed IMO your liberal wishy washy half a#sed approach of only targeting the pirate ships would in my opinion only exacerbate and displace the problem.

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I've sailed more than 1/2 around the world, and have lived in, for a significant length of time, several of its "3rd world" parts. I am well aware of the "inequities of life". As I posted somewhere on this subject, wake up and smell the coffee, this is not a poverty issue but a "terrorist/organised crime" one.
Not to decry your experiances. as equally valid as mine in the 3rd world. But IME poverty does breed the capacity for crime and violence amongst some of the locals which in our world would be beyond the pale. In a dog eat dog world it's better to be a wolf. in a pack. Terrorists? Maybe they are also Bogeymen?

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that some pirate-organised crime's pawn-terrorist's pawn will be thinking more than twice before attacking YOUR yacht, because they realise it is highly likely it would precipitate both their pirate skiff and their mother ship will become target practice for some helicopter warship or a F16, respectively. Now THAT'S pragmatism based on experience living in the REAL world!
I am not so sure that is real world pragmatism. more like fantasy island
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Old 18-04-2009, 17:31   #129
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The Dutch are sticklers for the law.

Do you remember the Rwandan massacre of Tutsis by the Hutus? 500,000 people were butchered in 1994 and maybe up to 1 million or 20% of the population.

The UN had soldiers there. Watching but not interfering. Dutch.

Sometimes courage is to disobey orders
The Dutch have had their moments - just after WWII.........

"Netherlands struggled to hold on to the Dutch East Indies by keeping them divided and preventing the emergence of a single free nation. In all, around 6,000 Dutch soldiers died in the war and at least 150,000 Indonesians were killed"
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Old 18-04-2009, 17:36   #130
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Well, while you are all pontificating the merits of the M word, Somalia, the subject of this thread has brought in Sharia Law... so all piracy will be legal and all westerners strung up....

VOA News - Somalia Parliament Endorses Islamic Law
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Old 18-04-2009, 20:08   #131
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I think the phrase you may be looking for is "thinking"
As they say on the Tui Beer billboards here in NZ: "Yeah right!"

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Indeed IMO your liberal wishy washy half a#sed approach of only targeting the pirate ships would in my opinion only exacerbate and displace the problem.
Why is that? Because a bunch of PC, social engineering do gooders, as well as the regional "wanna be's" and aspiring "power brokers" would get upset, yell and scream? Good, let them then go clean up the real mess on land. In the interim the 1st world protects its commericial ships and citizen's yachts!

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But IME poverty does breed the capacity for crime and violence amongst some of the locals which in our world would be beyond the pale. In a dog eat dog world it's better to be a wolf. in a pack.
Oh pleeease, like tell me something that everyone on this site and the world as a whole, including me and you, don't already know ... especially if you have spent any length of time in 3rd world environments. All the more reason why it's necessary to use "big sticks" to address the issue ... not on land but at sea, where the by-product of the real problem is occuring.

That said, for all I can care the entire continent of Africa can kill each other off, just don't go killing anyone or stealing in "my play pool"! While on the subject of killing each other, perhaps if they didn't spend so much time knocking each other off, they could address their own continent's issue of Somali instability ... amongst a number of other ones, if most weren't so damn corrupt and dictatorial. But that's another thread for an entirely different kind of forum

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Terrorists? Maybe they are also Bogeymen?
You've obviously have spent too much time 'tied to your dock' mate to read up on information that presents some very convincing evidence this current rash of piracy is being fueled by organised crime and/or terrorists. Admittedly as you stated earlier its epidemiology is poverty and social unrest.



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I am not so sure that is real world pragmatism. more like fantasy island
Unfortunately, that will be the case until enough American flagged commercial ships and/or enough American flagged yachts are either threatened, held hostage, or worst enough lives are lost .... you and Brad volunteering yourselves and your yachts mate???
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Old 19-04-2009, 02:37   #132
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As they say on the Tui Beer billboards here in NZ: "Yeah right!"
Tui? Yeah, good beer that But yer meant to drink it - not smoke it

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it's necessary to use "big sticks" to address the issue ... not on land but at sea, where the by-product of the real problem is occuring.
More liberal touchy feely wishful thinking . If you don't also tackle onshore yer won't ever solve the problem. I've already thrown in the suggestions of using tried and traditional methods of yard arms, heads on spikes and crucifictions - stuff which is best used onshore for maximum effect and are of course also enviromentally freindly as reusable / recyclable with low carbon footprints But I'd also be quite happy to use the more inventive bits of Sharia law, even if delivered through the bomb doors of a B52 from 30,000 feet. Call it delivering a message from God

Notwithstanding your NZ location I am suspecting a North American connection (no names ),apart from the short sighted liberal touchy feely approach whose attraction is the appearance of a solution the other clues for me are a) missing the point b) missing the target and c) arriving too late (could have easily prevented this problem a couple of years ago by tackling the Yemeni / Somali smuggling routes - wouldn't have stopped it all but would have prevented the current scale of operations - and the Western powers revealing their impotency).


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you and Brad volunteering yourselves and your yachts mate???
I dunno about Brad, but f#cked if I am sailing off Somalia in a yacht (mine or anyone else's) - haven't you heard? There be Pirates about Now, a bag of 6" nails, a couple of planks of wood and the TV rights to "Pirates on a Stick" would be a different matter - Simon Cowell eat yer heart out
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Old 19-04-2009, 03:08   #133
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I might be forgiven for thinking the only person amongst us smoking or popping "heavy duty fuel" is you Davey-boy ... especially if you perceive me and my postings as "liberal" ....

Earth calling Davey, Earth calling Davey, come in Davey.....
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Old 19-04-2009, 06:11   #134
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"Liberal" would be sending a few cruise missiles into the pirate villages.

Right wing, would be a massed ground invasion, beheading of the locals, crucifixions and so on.

Left wing, would be Social Enquiry reports and putting all the pirates on probation.

It's all a matter of degree.

It's interesting though, that if you look at bits of history, extreme left wing communism, and extreme right wing Nazis, did exactly the same thing. Oh what a circle life is.
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Old 19-04-2009, 06:35   #135
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Left wing, would be Social Enquiry reports and putting all the pirates on probation.
Left wing??????? Thats only quasy Left Wing!

Left Wing would offer all the pirates migration to a civilized western country and a lump sum payment and never ending support for their families and 13 generations of kids.

I vote we send all the pirates (and families) to Canada.

Then I can get up the Red Sea next year.

Mark
PS I am worried about using Canada and 'civilized'. I have only been there a few times.... Some girls in Montreal were cute.

<--- note for some members of CF. Some of the above writing may have been slightly in jest. Please look up 'Jest' in the dictionary
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