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Old 10-04-2009, 14:56   #46
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What the world should be doing to help nations like Somalia is an entirely different issue (and I agree, nations all around the world have not done right by many third world nations), but . . .

This is not a case of poverty forcing people to act a certain way. If it were, why aren't there thousands or millions of impoverished people robbing, stealing and killing? No, it is a tiny percentage of people who turn to crime as a response to poverty.

Most people who face the living conditions these Somali thugs face -- including people in Somalia -- do NOT hijack boats and hold the crew for ransom. Most go about their lives, trying to take care of their responsibilities as best they can, while still maintaining basic, personal ethics.

This is a not a problem of poverty. It is a problem of immorality. Some people are bad people. The living conditions they have been born into has nothing to do with it. Society has a responsibility to help those in need, but it also has a right to protect itself from criminals.

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Old 10-04-2009, 15:03   #47
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Yes David you are right and bottom line is there is an innocent sailor who died today, he was going after a dream just as anybody else here at the forums and he ended up on the grave. Regardless they make mistakes or not is sad and more sad when you think they were not causing any damage to anybody, they were a happy familly. The fact that they make a mistake does not justify in any manner that we have a Colin without a dad, he cannot be replaced.

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Old 10-04-2009, 15:13   #48
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After reading H Romberg's post I'm almost inclined to agree.

I definitely agree. :-( Global peace is an admirable goal but it seems like a work perpetually in progress. I know I sound like a warmongering so and so in my post, but there are times when violence really is the right answer. Those times are thankfully very rare, but piracy is one of them. We've tolerated it and actually funded its expansion through ransoms and that's not going to produce a workable outcome.

The French Navy did right in taking the boat by force, and they did great things in rescuing the 3 hostages that survived. I submit though, that the man who was murdered might be alive today if the world had reacted correctly to piracy from the begining.

I wonder what they'll do with the pirates they caught....
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Old 10-04-2009, 15:14   #49
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This is not a case of poverty forcing people to act a certain way. If it were, why aren't there thousands or millions of impoverished people robbing, stealing and killing?
DGC
First of all the Somali Pirates have not been killing people. Secondly they live in a country where there is no strong central government or rule of law. Thirdly, there are thousands or possibly millions of people around the world robbing, stealing and killing people. And not all of those thousands or millions are impoverished.
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Old 10-04-2009, 15:40   #50
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. . . The fact that they make a mistake does not justify in any manner that we have a Colin without a dad, he cannot be replaced.
Who is trying to justify this man's death?

My post addressed only the cause of piracy; it is my view that using poverty as some kind of justification for criminal behavior -- or that the criminal should be afforded some kind of "understanding" -- is illogical and doesn't hold up to statistical scrutiny. Some people are criminals, and we have a right to defend ourselves -- plain and simple.

I said nothing about France's actions today.
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Old 10-04-2009, 15:42   #51
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I think you are being defensive or maybe I did not make myself clear, sorry.

I was trying to say that no error justify actions from pirates anywhere in the globe.

Thank you
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Old 10-04-2009, 15:48   #52
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Yes David you are right and bottom line is there is an innocent sailor who died today, he was going after a dream just as anybody else here at the forums and he ended up on the grave. Regardless they make mistakes or not is sad and more sad when you think they were not causing any damage to anybody, they were a happy familly. The fact that they make a mistake does not justify in any manner that we have a Colin without a dad, he cannot be replaced.
But I will now .

My respect for the French government just went up. Their policy of not allowing the boat to reach shore seems like a sound one, and I think their president should be applauded for his willingness to stand up to these thugs. If this happened a few more time, I bet there wouldn't be near as many hijackings.

That this little boy's father was killed in the rescue is, of course, horrible, but monday-morning quarterbacking the decision to rescue the crew now that we know the outcome is pointless.

I know it sounds cruel, but it cannot be avoided that it was this boy's father who made the initial decision that led to today's actions. He decided to take his family into an area where 15 boats were taken just last month, and the events fell like dominoes from that initial decision.
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Old 10-04-2009, 15:51   #53
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No defensiveness here (and no need for it). Just making conversation; point and counterpoint.
I never get emotional about internet forum exchanges.
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Old 10-04-2009, 16:12   #54
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Anyone have a contact number OR E-MAIL for the PIRATES? The seem that well organized. Perhaps one can prepay the ransome and avoid the hassle. (Just kidding!) I wonder if the french 3 year old knows how to properly clean an AK47 or RPG yet? Now thats an education!
ANYONE that wants to find out where a certain ship is, and has an internet connection can find out when a vessel is transiting their area. One can always access Llyod's sailings or vessel track.com and they will give you all the information on the vessel's position, speed made good, course made good, cargo etc... Sometimes it is not a good idea to have all the information out there for others to see.
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Old 10-04-2009, 17:02   #55
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The entire world world with all its vast wealth, spy satellites, phased array radar and advanced snooping devices cant find rag tag bands of pirates and eradicate them?
They can. But it is required that any action against these pirates is OK'ed by politicians and they are busy with other things. In other words, there is no political will to fight, as there was none some years ago to take out Osama. Until enough dead bodies accumulates or pirates seize cargo that will be used for terorist attack, failed banks and businesses have priority .
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Old 10-04-2009, 18:40   #56
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I'm amazed at some of the responses here, and I've spent a goodly amount of time on that continent.

You needed to, when this first started, respond brutally and without mercy. Instead the world has been teaching them that Piracy will be rewarded, instead of demonstrating that such acts will lead to the pirates heads being put on a pike as a warning to others and his home blow apart.
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Old 10-04-2009, 19:26   #57
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Who's fault?

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The US has a long and dark history of not only doing business with other countries but also imposing them its way of thinking and living or not doing business at all, the price of this is only just beginning to pay. I can somehow understand this may be a government position but what is even more surprising to me is when it becomes a person's position i.e. if one differs from the american way of thinking on a forum one can easily get banned or expelled, same thing but in a smaller case scenario.

As long as the above continues to happen we will not have global peace, we are all equal human beings regardless of our national origin, sex, race or religion. Forcing nations to change values will never bring anything good.
I find it interesting that no matter what catastrophe happens in the World, blame is always laid on the United States. It doesn’t seem to matter where or when or how something occurs, it is invariably the fault of the US.

While the foregoing propensity might be gratifying to those that have whimpered and complained as they lived safely in the shadow of the shield provided by the US for the last 60 years—rightfully shamed by their own weaknesses and their ineffectual governments—make no mistake, those daze are rapidly coming to an end. The Obamanation has already proudly broadcast his willingness to bow to middle eastern potentates and, in short order you will likely all be cast adrift to make it on you own—or not—in a world filled with those ready and willing to “eat you for lunch”.

For the sake of the exercise, the history of Somalia—the Horn of Africa—is long and tortured and had virtually no involvement by the US until the early 1990’s following the collapse of the country in the aftermath of the disastrous Ogdan War, begun by Said Barra in his efforts to unite all of the Somali lands that had there-to-fore had been carved up in the late 1880’s.

From the 14th through the 17th century, “Somaliland” largely existed as collection independent city-states, ruled by different clans—all loosely under the control of the Ajuuraan, a widespread Somali clan—but frequently warring with one another in the manner that continues to this day. This status ended with the “Scramble for Africa” that followed the Berlin Conference of 1884 (involving Austria–Hungary, Belgium, Denmark, France, the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Sweden-Norway and the Ottoman Empire). During this, the Somaliland’s were divided between the participants but subsequently became British Somaliland, Italian Somaliland and French Somaliland as well as parts of Kenya and Ethiopia. While the intervening history is long and torturous—but did not involve the US—leave it be said that British Somaliland finally gained its independence in June 1960, as did Italian Somaliland a few days later, after which the two united to form the Somali Republic. (French Somaliland gained its independence much later as well but chose not to ally itself with the others but to remain independent as Djibouti). Upon gaining independence, an ineffectual government was formed but finally, in 1969, the “Country” was taken over by the military in a coup d’etat led by Said Barra.

By 1976, the military, under Barra, had formed the Somali Revolutionary Socialist Party, fashioned after the USSR, and in 1978 launched the Ogdan War by attacking Ethiopia. To Said’s surprise, the USSR and its ally Cuba backed then communist Ethiopia and with their weapons and, in some cases, troops, the Somali Army was decimated. Subsequently, during the 1980’s, the County’s situation deteriorated rapidly and in 1986 a Civil War erupted. Said was finally deposed in 1991 by a coalition of opposing clans called the United Somali Congress. In total, there were four opposing groups which continued to fight over the domination of Somalia. In June 1991, a ceasefire was agreed to, but failed to hold. A fifth group, the Somali National Movement (SNM), had already seceded from the northwest portion of Somalia in June and continued fighting led to anarchy throughout the country and conditions described as a Humanitarian disaster.

US involvement finally came following the UN Security Council’s Resolution 794 in December 1992, which led to the landing of a coalition of troops from the US as well as Australia, Belgium, Botswana, Canada, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, India, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom and Zimbabwe. This intervention led to the infamous “Blackhawk Down” incident in October of 1993 and the later US and coalition withdrawal in 1995 after the US’s failure of leadership under the Clinton administration.

The US’s only other intervention in Somalia came in January 2007, with the conduct of air strikes against Islamist positions as part of efforts to catch or kill Al Qaeda operatives embedded within the forces of the “Islamic Courts Union”, a collection of Somali Islamists formed to impose Sharia Law on the Somalis.

Since the mid-1990’s there have literally been dozens of factions attempting to assert hegemony over Somaliland, each claiming legitimacy by virtue of their clans, or political associations or Islamic heritage. Ordinary Somali’s, if there are any, have suffered terribly in this on-going state of warfare, but each “ordinary” Somali seems to be a part of one or another of these clans and participates, willingly (if not joyfully under the effect of khat), in the wholesale slaughter of competing clansmen, clanswomen, and their children. There is little the west can do about the situation, just as there is little that can be done about certain rampant diseases in Africa save isolate the diseased area and let matters run their course.

Many, if not all, of the ‘hijackings” are orchestrated by common criminals and Islamic militants that share a small percentage of their booty with the perpetrators and use the balance to enrich their mullahs and support on-going terrorist activities. If these activities are permitted to continue unchecked one is sewing the Wind and should, accordingly, be prepared to reap the Whirlwind.

May the Lord have Mercy on the Soul of the victim that died today and welcome him at the gates of Heaven; and, Grant solace to his wife and child. There, save for the grace of the Lord, go I.
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Old 10-04-2009, 19:45   #58
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Thanks for that HyLite!

My dad worked to build a seaport in Somalia in the mid 60s. Mom and us kids were in Tampa for those 3 years as no dependents were allowed. Gee y'all, can mebbe ya figger why? We left and gave it to the Russians.

So many in the "Western civilizations" simply cannot comprehend the way so many other societies operate. The "dog-eat-dog" statement is used and understood to mean some sort of "cubicle jumping" as one works their way up the "ladder" before some Buds and a game,or a little golf, or racquetball...........or "tubing" their evening away in someone elses imaginative artificial world - Cue the canned laughter so you know what is supposed to be funny.

It is too bad (well, maybe not, not sure really) that so many have been so sheltered and just do not understand that it truly is "A jungle out there"!!
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Old 10-04-2009, 20:12   #59
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A)the previous Somalian Government was very firm about piracy, and did a lot to prevent it but the US administration did not like the fact that they were a strict muslim nation and contributed to its downfall in favour of a weaker but more pro western government , which goes a ways to explaining why the attacks have strengthened over the last 6 years
Which government was that? Somalia has been in a near-constant state of civil war since they gained independence from the Europeans in 1960. Blaming the US is naive and suggesting that a loosely-grouped bunch of warlords (the ICU) was a legitimate government is laughable.

Quote:
and B) the Somalis have lost a huge chunk of their GDP to illegal fishing that has wiped out a 200 million a year industry, and other nations have not done a lot to assist them recover from that.
You've hit upon an important factor in the creation of the Somali piracy industry, but the reason again why unscrupulous foreign fishing fleets were able to abuse Somali waters, was due to the fact there was no Somali coast guard, navy or effective government for the past 2 decades.

But don't fool yourself - the reason that piracy has increased so much in the past few years is pure greed. They're looking to make millions to buy huge mansions, lots of cars and lots of bling - that's why they demand huge ransoms instead of taking whatever loot is on board and leaving.
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Old 10-04-2009, 20:23   #60
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As a new member, it doesn't feel right for me to jump into a politically charged discussion. However, I have two thoughts I would like to offer to the discussion of piracy one directly applicable to cruisers and one less so.

This first thought is, the ocean is a really really big place. So what are the odds of a pirate skiff being able to locate a sailboat which has no running lights and maintains radio silence? I have seen numerous posts about how sailboats don't show up on radar. At night, the sailboat would be virtually undetectable, especially during a new moon. Given pirates mostly attack at night, would this "security through obscurity" be adequate?

The second thought is on deterring general piracy. There are currently approximately 15 ships in the region from various navies. This force is/will be ineffectual at preventing piracy, because the reaction time is about 12 hours if not more. How can they get the reaction time down? Send in an aircraft carrier. A single aircraft carrier can probably keep 30 aircraft in the air at any given time. That would cut the average distance from help by 1/3. In addition, a jet can travel at more than 1000 knots, placing any needy vessel with help only a few minutes away. The aircraft could then destroy any vessel displaying hostile intentions before they were able to board a ship. The only requirement is that neutral vessels maintain a proper watch and can radio for help quickly. This also has relatively low risks of hitting anything that isn't a pirate, since you only attack if they are displaying hostile intentions. Thoughts?
The pirates generally attack during the daytime. I've previously commented on tactics the pirates are believed to use to find their targets.

Yes, a jet can get on-sta very quickly, but there is very little for them to visually distinguish between a pirate boat and the non-pirate boats in the region. The only certain hostile intention is the pirates actually boarding their victim, then it's too late for a fast-mover to do anything about it.
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