Flares

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by Chuck Baier

...MidLandOnes post did give the impression he did not carry flares and felt they were dangerous without distinction as to white or red. That was my reply, and yours seemed to indicate flares are not required and you did not distinguish whether you were referring to white or red...

For goodness sakes Chuck I have no idea where you gleaned any of that from out of my posts (even if you ignore their context with the original poster's question).

May I suggest that you make a New Year's resolution to either read the posts of others properly or else buy a new pair of reading spectacles - whichever is appropriate (maybe both) .

John

[cal40john]

I realize that Midland was talking about white. I was and am objecting to Chuck's assertions on pyrotechnic distress (red/orange) devices being required.

Once again, I believe pyrotechnics are probably the best answer, but might not be the answer for everyone.

John

Here's the actual CFR.

http://frwebgate6.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve

§ 175.130 Visual distress signals accepted.

(a) Any of the following signals, when
carried in the number required, can be
used to meet the requirements of
§ 175.110:
(1) An electric distress light meeting
the standards of 46 CFR 161.013. One is
required to meet the night only requirement.
(2) An orange flag meeting the standards
of 46 CFR 160.072. One is required
to meet the day only requirement.
(3) Pyrotechnics meeting the standards
noted in Table 175.130.
(b) Any combination of signal devices
selected from the types noted in paragraphs
(a) (1), (2) and (3) of this section,
when carried in the number required,
may be used to meet both day and

night requirements.

Examples—the

combination of two hand held red

flares (160.021), and one parachute red
flare (160.024 or 160.036) meets both day
and night requirements. Three hand
held orange smoke (160.037) with one
electric distress light (161.013) meet

both day and night requirements.

[Catamount]

The question of whehter one is required by the USCG to carry flares or not is a function of boat size.

Chuck, smaller boats (less than 26 feet, I think) can meet USCG requirements using an electric signalling light instead of nighttime flares, and an orange flag with black square and circle instead of daytime flares or smoke, as MidLandOne posted.

MidLandOne, the regulations you posted allowing one to get around havng to carry pyrotechnic signals only apply to smaller boats (I think less than 26 feet). Most cruising boats are larger than that and therefore are still going to have to carry pyrotechnic signals in order to be in compliance.

[Stillraining]

Well these characters almost sell me on the theory of evolution...because they could certainly pass for the missing link...

YouTube - man shoots himself in head with flare gun

[AnchorageGuy]

Originally Posted by Catamount

The question of whehter one is required by the USCG to carry flares or not is a function of boat size.

Chuck, smaller boats (less than 26 feet, I think) can meet USCG requirements using an electric signalling light instead of nighttime flares, and an orange flag with black square and circle instead of daytime flares or smoke, as MidLandOne posted.

MidLandOne, the regulations you posted allowing one to get around havng to carry pyrotechnic signals only apply to smaller boats (I think less than 26 feet). Most cruising boats are larger than that and therefore are still going to have to carry pyrotechnic signals in order to be in compliance.

Tim, You are quite correct and very few of us are out there cruising on boats smaller than 26'. And that was my point. But thank you for pointing that out.

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by Catamount

The question of whehter one is required by the USCG to carry flares or not is a function of boat size.

Chuck, smaller boats (less than 26 feet, I think) can meet USCG requirements using an electric signalling light instead of nighttime flares, and an orange flag with black square and circle instead of daytime flares or smoke, as MidLandOne posted.

MidLandOne, the regulations you posted allowing one to get around havng to carry pyrotechnic signals only apply to smaller boats (I think less than 26 feet). Most cruising boats are larger than that and therefore are still going to have to carry pyrotechnic signals in order to be in compliance.

Yer another one for a New Years resolution as to reading properly or getting new specs .

No where did I say, or would I ever say, any of the above .

John

[Catamount]

Originally Posted by MidLandOne

Yer another one for a New Years resolution as to reading properly or getting new specs .

No where did I say, or would I ever say, any of the above .

You are right, I have mis-attributed; I guess I just got caught up in the moment -- my deepest apologies!

[GordMay]

USCG Visual Distress Signals:
Visual Distress Signals

All vessels used on coastal waters, the Great Lakes, territorial seas, and those waters connected directly to them, up to a point where a body of water is less than two miles wide, must be equipped with U.S.C.G. Approved visual distress signals. Vessels owned in the United States operating on the high seas must be equipped with U.S.C.G. Approved visual distress signals.

If pyrotechnic devices are selected a minimum of three are required. That is, three signals for day use and three signals for night. Some pyrotechnic signals meet both day and night use requirements.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Catamount

The question of whehter one is required by the USCG to carry flares or not is a function of boat size.

Chuck, smaller boats (less than 26 feet, I think) can meet USCG requirements using an electric signalling light instead of nighttime flares, and an orange flag with black square and circle instead of daytime flares or smoke, as MidLandOne posted.

MidLandOne, the regulations you posted allowing one to get around havng to carry pyrotechnic signals only apply to smaller boats (I think less than 26 feet). Most cruising boats are larger than that and therefore are still going to have to carry pyrotechnic signals in order to be in compliance.

I AM Cal40John, not Midland.

No, look at the website Gord and I posted. An open sailboat less than 26' with no mechanical propulsion operating during daylight hours is not required to have any distress signalling equipment at all.

John

If you don't trust that site, then here is the CFR, look at 175.110 and 175.115

http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve

§ 175.110 Visual distress signals required.

(a) No person may use a boat 16 feet
or more in length, or any boat operating
as an uninspected passenger vessel
subject to the requirements of 46
CFR chapter I, subchapter C, unless
visual distress signals selected from
the list in § 175.130 or the alternatives
in § 175.135, in the number required, are
onboard. Devices suitable for day use
and devices suitable for night use, or
devices suitable for both day and night
use, must be carried.
(b) Between sunset and sunrise, no
person may use a boat less than 16 feet
in length unless visual distress signals

suitable for night use, selected from
the list in § 175.130 or § 175.135, in the
number required, are on board.

§ 175.115 Exceptions.

The following persons need not comply
with § 175.110; however, each must
carry on board visual distress signals
suitable for night use, selected from
the list in § 175.130 or § 175.135, in the
number required, between sunset and
sunrise:
(a) A person competing in any organized
marine parade, regatta, race, or
similar event;
(b) A person using a manually propelled
boat; or
(c) A person using a sailboat of completely
open construction, not equipped
with propulsion machinery, under 26

′ in
length.

[MidLandOne]

Is getting to be too many Johns around here .

John

[David_Old_Jersey]

Whilst OP no doubt appreciates all the very useful advice on what the USCG requires or does not require for US vessels in US waters........as he is in the UK the US legal niceties are perhaps not entirely relevent

And he did ask "Are White flares actually needed on board??" - which I interpreted as "any one know if they are of any bl##dy use?".....rather than for any legal requirements.

.....Although never having used one I too have read (including that UK example mentioned) that they are not as user freindly (stable long term in a marine environment?) as they could be (I admit though not having set fire to myself or crew with one may make me unqualified to pass judgement - but some things I do like to avoid learning the hard way. some things at least )......and given that the concept of a white flare dates from an era long befoe 1 Million candle power spotlights (whether shone at sails or bridge) I am more inclined to go with the non-combustible alternative. But may still be tempted to have a couple onboard......

(BTW the legal niceties for a UK vessel are quite simple, no flares are legally required (whether white, red or candy striped pink ) - same as a UK vessel does not legally need a sign demonstrating how to use the head .....sorry for raising that one (yet) again - but the concept still makes me smile ).

[dergon]

This thread is as close as I could find, so apologies if a bit OT but figured it was better than starting a new topic.

We are going through the equipment on our new (to us) sailboat.

The flare gun is an Olin 12 guage signal flare launcher. The actual charges are Orion "12-guage High Performan Red Aerial Flare".

There is an admonition on the pachaging warning against using the wrong brand in the gun. Is this a real warning or just one of those proprietary "use only authentic *Nabisco* chocolate chips" kind of warning?


Thanks for advice.

dergon

[SabreKai]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever had an expired flare fail when they tried to launch it? I'm a bit ticked when I have to cough up a couple hundred dollars ever 3.5-4 years for flares when the old ones are still clean, dry and functional. At this very moment I am looking at replacing the entire set of 12 while still having some 28 older flares going back to 1981. The youngest set is dated for replacement in March 98.

Sabre

[Badsanta]

I have had old ones fail. You dont have to get rid of the old ones, just keep the minimum part current. Then if you need them start with the old first. I want more than the minimum. A 12 gauge flare does not do much. I was always under the impression that white is for attention like "dont run over me! " Red is for Help me! IIRC

[AK_sailor]

Originally Posted by SabreKai

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever had an expired flare fail when they tried to launch it? ....
Sabre

Yes, I also have had older ones fail. The expiration date is there for a good reason. Moisture seems to be one culprit for pyrotechnic failure, but general chemical deteriouration probably also is a factor. Vacum sealing them in plastic helps (using one of those food sealing devices) but even then you should always have at least one current set on board. Keep the most recently expired ones as backups. On the previous thread http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...sal-22364.html there was a long discussion about what to do with the really old ones.

Also, I believe someone (ex USCG?) recommended that if you are in distress, you should always shoot flares in pairs with a couple of seconds between them. The idea is that rockets etc don't burn very long. The first one gets someones attention, perhaps when they see it in peripheral vision, then they look and really see the second one. Having more than the minimum on board obviously helps in that scenario.

Flares are like life jackets and fire extinguishers. They seem like a big waste of money and storage space, and you rarely if ever need them. But when you do need them, you need them really really really badly!