Fire Fighting

[topmast]

With more and more stuff powered by lithium batteries a whole new area of worry Over charging., internal wiring shorts are just a couple of concerns .

[RPZ]

I stopped a potential engine fire in a car once. The owner/driver did not have a clue what was going on except that smoke was coming out from under the hood (bonnet) and smelled burning plastic. When the hood was opened and I saw smoking wire casings I appealed to those standing around for a pair of pliers and cut the battery cable.

Fusing is best, but a cable cutter can be used to disconnect the battery by cutting the earth (ground) lead.

Having looked at a few boats for sale recently, as well as photos for those for sale on line, I am amazed at how many have loose tangles of wiring, some obviously redundant, in the engine compartments and or elsewhere. Apart from just being "untidy", and making maintenance and repairs potentially confusing it can be a disaster waiting to happen.

The other observation is the haphazard ways batteries are located and secured (seen two that were simply laying on the engine compartment floor). Batteries should be securely mounted by some heavy duty means, with well protected terminals. Same goes for wiring, which should be carefully bundled, routed, securely fixed to prevent excessive movement, and protected where it passes through bulkheads and other chafing points.

As for kitchen fires, another point is to not have flammable furnishings, curtains etc anywhere near the cooking area.

[tkeithlu]

Lots of good points here. Obvious need for cruisers to understand that they not only have fire hazards, they have a variety of types of hazard that require different techniques and materials for extinguishing. Also clear that there is a weakness in any firefighting system that is based on electric pumps - power may be the first thing to go.

The biggest missing element I see in the conversation is the flammability of fiberglass resin. It burns like greased paper, and the smoke produced is very toxic. Once your fiberglass boat itself catches fire, which can be very quickly if the source is an electrical short, your chances of success go way down. At least the big black smoke cloud attracts rescuers.....

[DRS]

maybe its time we looked at adding different technology in our extinguishes. Almost every fire department now deploys some type of foam system as part of their attack options. Foam fire extinguishers are available to the public and would add an additional option over and above the typical dry chem units.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjgg5GLxZmg

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Lots of good points here. Obvious need for cruisers to understand that they not only have fire hazards, they have a variety of types of hazard that require different techniques and materials for extinguishing. Also clear that there is a weakness in any firefighting system that is based on electric pumps - power may be the first thing to go.

The biggest missing element I see in the conversation is the flammability of fiberglass resin. It burns like greased paper, and the smoke produced is very toxic. Once your fiberglass boat itself catches fire, which can be very quickly if the source is an electrical short, your chances of success go way down. At least the big black smoke cloud attracts rescuers.....

Yeah there's a few YouTube videos of yachts ablaze.

And speaking of toxic fumes; most people that die in fires die from smoke inhalation. If you wake in the v berth with the cabin full of choking fumes get the hell out of there FAST. You can quickly be overcome, and the symptoms combined with reduced vis will lead to quick disorientation.

Likewise if on deck, do not try and go below. If you have family or crew below that you are determined to try and save you had better be fast. On larger boats smoke hoods might be a good idea to have both topside and below in places where everyone knows the locations, and knows how to use them.

[tkeithlu]

It is difficult to say a bunch that is positive about the dry-chem extinguisher.
Positve: cheap, can be used on electrical and flammable liquid fires.
Negative: largely ineffective on Class A fires, because only makes a crust that separates air from the solid on fire without dealing with the real problem of stored heat, ergo, reignition; destroys any electronics it gets near, because powder is corrosive; and has only a very temporary effect on a liquid fire in which the liquid itself is heated (kitchen grease fires).

Unfortunately, given A,B,C,D, and K fires (US SYstem), the alternative to relying on a cheap marginally effective dry chem extinguisher requires understanding each type of fire, understanding the easiest way to break the heat/fuel/oxygen system, and having the appropriate extinguishing systems on hand to choose from. The pan lid over the kitchen grease fire is a wonderful example. That's a much better approach than grabbing a dry chem. The bolt cutter is an ultimate answer to electrical fires. Dry chems can be used on electrical fires, but they only deal with the "A" component; the electrical short supplying the heat is still there. But, think how much education we would have to do to raise the average boater to having the right equipment on hand and making the rational selection of which to use when suddenly confronted with a fire in a boat. Ouch.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by DRS

maybe its time we looked at adding different technology in our extinguishes. Almost every fire department now deploys some type of foam system as part of their attack options. Foam fire extinguishers are available to the public and would add an additional option over and above the typical dry chem units.

Foam looks good!

Check out the size of the fire in this video and the size of the extinguisher used. Very impressive!

https://youtu.be/X6UOkjltpeo

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

But, think how much education we would have to do to raise the average boater to having the right equipment on hand and making the rational selection of which to use when suddenly confronted with a fire in a boat. Ouch.

Well let me say right off that I oppose "mandatory" (by regulation) education in any form because it is nearly always instituted as yet another hoop to jump through with a fee and scheduled time.

Better is that people are encouraged to educate themselves. In this case there are plenty of online sources of info, and I suspect that if you called your local fire department they might be able to direct you to some kind of low cost source of training.

But there is no cure for willful ignorance, and the consequences are the responsibility of the individual person.

[tkeithlu]

Boy, if you want to see a racket with fee attached look at mandatory annual recertification in CPR, which a bunch of professions require. Your skills don't deteriorate that fast, and they fail to mention the narrow little 10 minute window you have between arrest and defibrillation in which CPR is effective. Four hours a year? It burns me up when someone who has never faced it for real wants me to recertify after ten years and 500 calls as a volunteer firefighter/EMT. "Oh, but you're not certified."

I still teach fire extinguishers to volunteers. Fortunately, the American Red Cross hasn't noticed that area as an opportunity for a racket. FEMA has, and it's curriculum is really weak. I juice it up by having the students put out a real fire with real dry chem extinguishers. They are impressed with the mess you can make with a two second burst from a five pound dry chem. They have to wear N95 masks and goggles for protection from the extinguisher, not the fire.

Yeah, foam is a great addition.

[Roy M]

I carry two large Halotron extinguishers, one in each main cabin, plus an Amerex AFFF ATC foam extinguisher in the cockpit locker. I also have a Fireboy Halon system in the engine room. I have yet to install a fire blanket in the galley, but I have, at least found sources in lab equipment sites. I wil have no dry chemical extinguishers aboard my boat, ever since accidentally discharging one in the back sea of an old "beater" car I had. The chemical powder virtually destroys an interior. The fine powder works its way into fabrics, electrical switches, circuit boards, virtually everywhere. Never again, especially since the Halotron and the foam do such a great job at extinguishing, then leaving behind a boat that can still be operated.

I need to call Amerex (in Seattle) to locate the NON-Coast Guard approved portable foam cylinders, like I currently have. Why NON-certified? It's all about price. If I fulfill my Coast Guard requirements for on-board systems with the Halotron, then I can get the cheaper non-certified units (about half the price) because they don't require the massive bracket that comes with certification, and doubles the price. Same agent inside the cylinder, massive, expensive ( and for my judgement) useless accessory bracket. My plan for deployment, should the Halon and Halotron units be overwhelmed, is to reach into the locker in the cockpit , where I will have escaped to, and lay down a thick bed of foam on the path and the source of the flames. Later, I can hand wipe and clean the dried residue, not a powder, off the interior. Being terrified of fires at sea, I'll probably have a couple more foam extinguishers nearby. A fire aboard can ruin your whole day.

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by Roy M

I carry two large Halotron extinguishers, one in each main cabin, plus an Amerex AFFF ATC foam extinguisher in the cockpit locker. I also have a Fireboy Halon system in the engine room. I have yet to install a fire blanket in the galley, but I have, at least found sources in lab equipment sites. I wil have no dry chemical extinguishers aboard my boat, ever since accidentally discharging one in the back sea of an old "beater" car I had. The chemical powder virtually destroys an interior. The fine powder works its way into fabrics, electrical switches, circuit boards, virtually everywhere. Never again, especially since the Halotron and the foam do such a great job at extinguishing, then leaving behind a boat that can still be operated.

I need to call Amerex (in Seattle) to locate the NON-Coast Guard approved portable foam cylinders, like I currently have. Why NON-certified? It's all about price. If I fulfill my Coast Guard requirements for on-board systems with the Halotron, then I can get the cheaper non-certified units (about half the price) because they don't require the massive bracket that comes with certification, and doubles the price. Same agent inside the cylinder, massive, expensive ( and for my judgement) useless accessory bracket. My plan for deployment, should the Halon and Halotron units be overwhelmed, is to reach into the locker in the cockpit , where I will have escaped to, and lay down a thick bed of foam on the path and the source of the flames. Later, I can hand wipe and clean the dried residue, not a powder, off the interior. Being terrified of fires at sea, I'll probably have a couple more foam extinguishers nearby. A fire aboard can ruin your whole day.

So what exactly do you have to have for CG requirements, and how can it be CG non-certified at the same time??

[Roy M]

My boat is required to carry, by the USCG, as a forty-plus footer, two B-II rated extinguishers. All the rest that I choose to carry are optional, though well advised. And having one or two additional, though unrated, foam extinguishers, is merely an abundance of caution.

[Roy M]

On further investigation, apparently the newest option for portable, non-residue extinguishers, is just making its way to market, specifically with West Marine's newest units. The active agent is pure, liquified argon, an inert gas occurring in the atmosphere in tiny amounts. It achieves its effect by primarily cooling the source down, and simultaneously blanketing away the oxygen. Non toxic, it dissipates back into the atmosphere from whence it came. It is claimed to also be safe to use on a hot engine block without causing cracks.

Here's a video on deployment of a Halotron-based extinguisher that compliments the Yachting Monthly Crash Boat Fire video:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvJA-_OP568

)

[RPZ]

Originally Posted by Roy M

My boat is required to carry, by the USCG, as a forty-plus footer, two B-II rated extinguishers. All the rest that I choose to carry are optional, though well advised. And having one or two additional, though unrated, foam extinguishers, is merely an abundance of caution.

Gotcha.

Re: argon. And what about electrical fires? OK, sense dictates you disconnect power sources first anyway.

[Roy M]

Argon shuts off the heat and oxygen to potential fueled fires. That's why these new classes of extinguishers are ideal for electrical/electronics fires.