FIRE! Fight or Flight?

[Uricanejack]

Fight or Flight? Depends on the situation. The primary goal should be to preserve life.

Entering a confined space without SCBA armed only with a fire extuingusher is less than wise.

Having said so I am not always very wise. I acted instinctively.

We used to have a very old C&C 24. It was red and we enjoyed a lot of weekend trips to popular local marine parks. The boat had an outboard. No ellectrical system and no fixed galley. We had the required basic safety equipment including PFDS a two ABC fire extuingushers. 1 Kept in the cockpit locker. Near to the outboard. 1 in a small rubbermaid with the basic safety gear and first aid kit.

We used a typical small butane single burner camp stove avalable at most hardware stores along with a propane camping lamp. We also have a propane BBQ.

A few years ago. Early fall, my wife 2 kids and I sailed to a popular island anchorage in a local marine park. We spent much of the day walking round the island. Burrgers on the BBQ. After the sun went down. It was quite cold out. So we retreated bellow.

The C&C has two small bunks in the saloon and a small fore cabin. My 12 year old son ocupied the port bunk my wife and daugher were setup in the fore cabin. While I was boiling some water for a cup of hot chocolate all round.
This particular evening being a bit cold I had closed over the hatch but I left the hatchboard out of the tracks to allow for some ventilation. We had the propane lamp going on the Fwd end of the small salloon table. While I was making hot chocolate at the aft end of the sallon table.

The bottle ran out so i changed it.

While changing the bottle it didnt seat right and butane sputed out and imeadiatly ignited into quite a fire ball. The Fire was between my wife, Kids and the exit. My son was trapped by at the aft end of his bunk against the chart table by the flare up.

The following took well under a minute possibly less than 30 seconds.

No fire extuingisher was near. I decided to turff the stove overbaord. I was obstructed by the closed hatch. And the burning stove was to hot stove was to hot so I dropped it.
I picked it up with the hatch board got it out to the cockpit and overboard. I though I had solved the imediate danger.

No? We were still on fire.

My bunk cusion had caught fire. The foam was giving of thick nast black smoke and flaring right up again between the exit and my crew.

I just grabbed the cusion, took it out on deck and threw it overboard. It was well involved by the time I tossed it. Much to my surprise it kept burning in the sea. The whole thing lit up with flames 5 or 6ft high and thick black smoke. Lighting up the whole anchorage.
Shortly after I pitched the burning cushion. A neighboring boater arrived in his dingy. With his fire extuingisher and first aid kit. followed by another. I heard on his hand held a passing Ferry had stopped and was advising GC it was launching its FRC.

I was impressed and grateful at how quickly they had showed up to help. I thanked them profusely and assured them we were fine as the fire continued to burn.

We passed on to CG the situation was under control no ijuries and just a burning matress in the water.

I was very embarrased and didnt want any help. Particularly disturbing the whole anchorage. I just wanted everyone to leave so we could hide.

We assured everyone we were all fine. The next day I tried to find the remnants of the cushion. none were found. It burned for a long time.

My daughter had exited out the fore hatch and my son had managed to get out the fore hatch after I had removed the stove.

My sons hair was singed quite badly and he need a short hair cut to remove the evidence. I dont have a lot of hair, the little I have was singed my eyebrows were gone. As was most of the hair on my arms. I looked quite bizare. I didnt notice till after it had all calmed down but i had a burn on my arm from some melted foam.

The boat itself was short a bunk cushion and we never really managed to clean all the signs of smoke from the deckhead. I have thrown away my other camp stove of this type I think they are quite dangerous.

With hindsight using bellow deck was pretty stupid. Fortunatly despite my efforts we survived relativly unscathed.

Bottom line. Even my current boat is just not equiped to fight a fire. How many typical cruising boats are?

Today I carry a life raft.

I have fire extingushers in both cabins and two in the Galley area. One which can be fire directly into the engine comartment through a hole. I have the usual ABC. They work. Even if they are messy. I dont care if its messy so long as it takes care of the fire.
When I bought my newer old boat. My budget was tight. I bought a liferaft instead of a tender. The tender would have been a lot more usefull and a lot cheeper. I bought a tender later when funds were available.

My future plan is flight. Or at least have. If required and a place to fly to.

To some extent the liferaft exists to keep my wife happy particularly when I take her kids sailing. Even so I wouldn't be comfortable taking them out to sea again without one.

My kids are no longer kids they are in their twenties now.

I never really thought or expected it could happen to me.

[TrentePieds]

uricanejack

Thank you for that contribution! Testimony from someone who has "been there" is the best possible way to convince people that caution and vigilance is required.

An ounce of prevention is, as the old saying goes, worth a pound of cure. The fact of the matter is, in regard to boat fires, that if you don't win the battle in the first few seconds, the battle will be lost.

You are to be commended for acting with fortitude in the situation you describe. And you are to be commended for making this experience available for others to learn from.

TP

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

My future plan is flight. Or at least have. If required and a place to fly to.

Very good storey about how a simple but toxic fire has the potential to trap people in their cabins.

I dont think that I could relax in a cabin at night without a direct escape hatch in case of fire.

[iGrf]

Very interesting topic with lots of good comments and recommendations, I will make some changes to my boat's setup based on these !

But I'm a bit surprised that nobody has mentioned foam extinguishers, from what I've been told they are the most versatile of all and should only be avoided for (high voltage) electricity fires, wouldn't it expect to be a problem on 12 or 24 volt installations though ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher#Foams

They work by both removing heat (water) and depriving the burning material of air (foam).

[Tampabayfireman]

As far as foam or wet water extinguishers, a couple of thoughts. Look at what you expect as your “normal” fire on a boat. First. Engine room. Typically fuel related. Unless you have true fuel smothering foam and know how to use it, all you will succeed in doing is spreading the fire. Next. Your cooking breakfast and grease fire flares. Grab the wrong extinguisher and google turkey fire. Same principle. Water and grease don’t mix. Fire spread. And for anyone working in the restaurant industry if you ever use a dry chem in the kitchen at work they will fire u. Period. That kitchen is out of service for 3 days minimum. That powder goes everywhere. But on a boat use it because it works and keeps working. You don’t care the kitchen is oos. On a boat I am not under usda food requirements. And it will put the fire out.
Now an electrical fire. Again not the shorted 12 volt light. It’s your 110 wall outlet either on the inverter or the generator. Why is it that one? Salt corrosion and spray /leak behind wall under window. Because the fire from when your working on the electrical isn’t the problem. It’s the one at dinner time or at night after you turned the inverter or gen on because it’s hot. That is where it will happen. So it’s an energizing circuitry. So water and 110 by don’t mix. That is the reason USCG wants that abc or bc extinguisher. It’s the law of averages. If you have a foam/wet water type extinguisher or kitchen class and you know what your doing great but the problem to coin a phrase. The grizwalls that have no clue on your boat is the one that will first grab the wrong one. I don’t mean to make light of it but the noob that doesn’t know is the lowest common denominator. And in today’s society you have to work towards than end.

[Tampabayfireman]

And let’s talk averaging. Do you have the bare minimum of extinguishers or are you like me and every room has a light and an extinguisher. Why? Murphy. The fire will happen at the wrong time or place. Cost. So an extra couple of extinguisher cost what 25 each. And while I am on this horse. Let’s talk smoke alarms. Seriously folks. You wouldn’t think of not having them at home why would you not have a couple on the boat. Same with CO detector. I don’t care if it’s a diesel. The CO will go off in a fire as well. If it saves one life it’s worth all the bitching that I can do.

[Olddan1943]

Hmmm, after reading this thread, I think I will add a fire blanket in the galley area for grease fires.

[hodgmo]

“Halon does not put off deadly gases.” a64pilot (post 75)

This is an informative thread, with lots of good ideas and advice. But the above comment, unfortunately, is not entirely accurate, and needs a caveat. In short, beware of the potential toxic gas byproduct created by any halogenated agent during firefighting, including the Halons. This something else to consider when making the fight or flight call.

I agree that Halon extinguishers are good to keep aboard – I do – but they have limitations. First they are only rated to use against fuel fires (US class B), and safe to use on electrical fires (US class C), and they are good first choices for those type fires. But Halons are not a good choice for use against deep-seated fires involving solids – wood, plastic, etc (US class A), and doing so can be dangerous because, in addition to not being effective, dangerous levels of toxic gases may be generated. This is especially a threat when Halon is used against large persistent fires. Based on the linked story earlier in this thread, I think the Sandpiper fire is an example of a fire where Halon (US class BC) would not have helped, and might have made things even worse. Deep-seated fires burning solids need to be fought with a water, foam or phosphate-based dry chemical (US class A, AB, or ABC). Certain aerosol extinguishers may also be effective.

While Halons (1301 and 1211), as a64 and others pointed out, are safe to breath at the concentrations necessary to extinguish a fire, the byproducts of suppression may not be, and can, in certain cases, reach dangerous levels. Halons 1301 (CF3Br) and 1211 (CF2ClBr), as well as many of their replacements, all act chemically and thermally (in varying degrees) to extinguish fires. The action of the Halons is mostly chemical, which is one reason why they work so well at low concentrations (~5% for 1301) – so no fear of asphyxiation. But if the fire is an overmatch for the extinguisher, bad stuff results, including highly toxic acid gases (HF, HBr, and HCl from 1211), as well as carbonyls (COF2, and from 1211, COCl, aka phosgene). This applies to any halogenated agent, not just the Halons.

In fact CO2, water and dry chemical (including certain aerosols) are among the only widely-available fire suppression agents that don’t create significant hazardous byproducts – but as has been described elsewhere in this thread, they have other limitations. Fortunately, as long as the fire is relatively small and extinguished quickly, dangerous levels of combustion byproducts from halogenated agents are unlikely. That, combined with the amazing firefighting effectiveness of the Halons on BC fires (compared to other halogenated agents), is the basis for their continued use in specific aviation and military ground vehicle applications where no adequate replacement has been identified.

[SV_Harbinger]

I've have 3 run ins with fire, 1 on a boat I owned, 1 while I was in the Navy, and 1 on a boat that was not mine and I was not aboard when the fire started.
The one that was on my boat, was about 20 years ago, at the time I had a 24' Sportscraft of late 80s vintage, single Johnson 225hp. It started as an electrical fire under the cockpit, as soon as it was noticed I ripped open the battery box and cut the leads, no juice no fire, but by the time it was noticed something else was on fire and access to the effected space was how shall we say poor, hit it with every extinguisher I had, but what had started as only wisps of smoke is becoming clouds of thick black smoke, and the flickering of the flames could be seen through the deck access. Ok time to go, but go where? I didn't have a liferaft, neither did I have a tender. Fortunately other boats in the area responded to the mayday and a lobsterboat that was quite close by was there at about the 3 minute mark, and the now ex-wife and I quite happily climbed aboard. A short time later, not sure how long, but not more than 10 minutes, from stem to stern was nothing but one big fire ball, with only a small bit of the topsides not actively burning. The CG then showed up and did try to fight the fire, but by the time they got there with the right equipment there was nothing they really could do. In the term of not more than 45min she had burned to the waterline and sank.
Lessons learned; even lower voltages can start fires, get help asap if I had waited to get on ch. 16 and issue a mayday it might not have turned out so well, carry more than the minimum fire extinguishers, dry chemical is pretty useless if you can't get it directly on the fire, spaces you can not access should be avoided, fire spreads amazingly fast especially after it has burned through rubber fuel lines, and possibly the most important have some method of abandoning ship better than a PFD and a swim and be able to get it into service immediately.

While in the Navy had an electric motor for a pump go up, immediately called away by the watch stander, and within seconds just short of every fire extinguisher on board was at the scene (literally, it was the damage control doctrine aboard that ALL non critical watch standers grab the nearest appropriate extinguisher and get it to the scene ASAP, while the off going watch dons FFEs and gets ready to form hose teams) and the electrical supply to the pump was secured. Fire was probably discovered and extinguished in the time it took you to read this.
Lesson, training and the correct equipment make all the difference when dealing with fire.

The boat that was not mine:
An old wooden Mathews 30 ish feet single inboard diesel, anchored close by, it was maybe 6-7 years ago so I forget where exactly, but somewhere in Long Island Sound. Galley fire, spread up into the cabinetry pretty fast, but was put out before any really serious damage was done.
Lessons: even small fires produce loads of smoke, the effects of smoke can linger for a surprising amount of time, like the incident with my boat fire spreads FAST.

Over all take aways:
Only fight a fire if; you have good access to the fire, the fire is still small, fuel is not involved gasoline in particular, you have a good means of getting out of the effected space, and you have the proper equipment in adequate supply, if any 1 of the above are not met do not attempt to fight the fire, boats are replaceable you are not.

As for what I have for fire fighting, dry chemical on the starboard side of the conpanionway steps, fire blanket on the port side of the conpanionway easily reachable from in front of the stove, co2 under the nav desk AFFF in the locker outside the head hanging up on the forward bulkhead, a small 5lb dry chem starboard shelf in the vberth, and an AFFF and co2 in the lazerett and the dingy has its own dry chem, for a total of 7 extinguishers, but that only works out to 1 minute 35 seconds of firefighting ability.
Stay safe out there.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by hodgmo

“Halon does not put off deadly gases.” a64pilot (post 75)

This is an informative thread, with lots of good ideas and advice. But the above comment, unfortunately, is not entirely accurate, and needs a caveat. In short, beware of the potential toxic gas byproduct created by any halogenated agent during firefighting, including the Halons. This something else to consider when making the fight or flight call.

I agree that Halon extinguishers are good to keep aboard – I do – but they have limitations. First they are only rated to use against fuel fires (US class B), and safe to use on electrical fires (US class C), and they are good first choices for those type fires. But Halons are not a good choice for use against deep-seated fires involving solids – wood, plastic, etc (US class A), and doing so can be dangerous because, in addition to not being effective, dangerous levels of toxic gases may be generated. This is especially a threat when Halon is used against large persistent fires. Based on the linked story earlier in this thread, I think the Sandpiper fire is an example of a fire where Halon (US class BC) would not have helped, and might have made things even worse. Deep-seated fires burning solids need to be fought with a water, foam or phosphate-based dry chemical (US class A, AB, or ABC). Certain aerosol extinguishers may also be effective.

While Halons (1301 and 1211), as a64 and others pointed out, are safe to breath at the concentrations necessary to extinguish a fire, the byproducts of suppression may not be, and can, in certain cases, reach dangerous levels. Halons 1301 (CF3Br) and 1211 (CF2ClBr), as well as many of their replacements, all act chemically and thermally (in varying degrees) to extinguish fires. The action of the Halons is mostly chemical, which is one reason why they work so well at low concentrations (~5% for 1301) – so no fear of asphyxiation. But if the fire is an overmatch for the extinguisher, bad stuff results, including highly toxic acid gases (HF, HBr, and HCl from 1211), as well as carbonyls (COF2, and from 1211, COCl, aka phosgene). This applies to any halogenated agent, not just the Halons.

In fact CO2, water and dry chemical (including certain aerosols) are among the only widely-available fire suppression agents that don’t create significant hazardous byproducts – but as has been described elsewhere in this thread, they have other limitations. Fortunately, as long as the fire is relatively small and extinguished quickly, dangerous levels of combustion byproducts from halogenated agents are unlikely. That, combined with the amazing firefighting effectiveness of the Halons on BC fires (compared to other halogenated agents), is the basis for their continued use in specific aviation and military ground vehicle applications where no adequate replacement has been identified.

Very good post about Halon and timely because I had a halon tank above the main engine and diesel filters before refit and deciding if I should put back.
Not that it matters in the Philippines, but I thought Halon had been outlawed, yet I do not have space for a less effective Co2 system
Can Halon tanks still be serviced?

[Olddan1943]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Very good post about Halon and timely because I had a halon tank above the main engine and diesel filters before refit and deciding if I should put back.
Not that it matters in the Philippines, but I thought Halon had been outlawed, yet I do not have space for a less effective Co2 system
Can Halon tanks still be serviced?

It is my understanding, if you have it you can keep it. Per servicing, if it has not been discharged and can pass inspection, dont worry about.

[davil]

although not a fight or flight I think is somehow related to the issue of fires on board.
Yesterday have a short circuit in electric panel that escalated into a small fire while burning all panel wires,lots of dense smoke, did not have to use any extinguisher,at the dock fortunately.
Cause?,a voltmeter installed by an electrician I hired recently to rewire a new subpanel,WITHOUT A FUSE connected to the positive bus bar.
Nigel Calder has a paragraph dedicated to voltmeters and small monitor devices installed without fuses as Main Culprits on fires on boats!
Is your voltmeter fused?
cheers

[thinwater]

I saw only one post that considered the off-shore situation when rescue is NOT coming. Run to where?


I had a small incipient electrical fire off-shore once. PO did some funny wiring under a liner. It gets your blood pumping, since the raft isn't much of an option. It's not about insurance or the cost of the boat. It's about having a boat.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by hodgmo

This is an informative thread, with lots of good ideas and advice. But the above comment, unfortunately, is not entirely accurate, and needs a caveat.

Agreed, but I do have an issue with the later statement were you said:

Originally Posted by hodgmo

I agree that Halon extinguishers are good to keep aboard – I do – but they have limitations.

Halon extinguishers have no place on board a yacht. The Montreal agreement banned them years ago and most of the world has stopped using them for all but a minority of cases some of which you highlighted like Aviation and limited military uses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol

I don't normally bang the "green" drum, but saving the ozone layer which protects all of us from harmful radiation kind of sounds like a good idea and a recent program showed it working the hole is reducing. Okay sermon over, everyone to the bar.

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Not that it matters in the Philippines, but I thought Halon had been outlawed, yet I do not have space for a less effective Co2 system. Can Halon tanks still be serviced?

No chance in Europe, but as you say in the Ph, well?

Not cheap, but then neither is a new engine:

https://www.fireandsafetycentre.co.u...inguisher.html

Should do up to 10 cu metres.

Pete