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Old 16-09-2014, 02:45   #241
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

Sending in 3000 troops will turn this situation into deeper a cluster phluck. The goverment already has a terrible record with protecting military responders from harm.

Does Somolia ring a bell?

Fukushima....... we have sailors sick from radiation, and the goverment wants to cover it up. Some of these kids now have cancer.

USS Ronald Reagan Crew Members Sick With Cancer Three Years After Fukushima Contamination [PHOTOS]
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Old 16-09-2014, 13:33   #242
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

Ann,
Altruism is a wonderful thing but even then, it is often tempered by realities.

a64-
"But really and truly if you serve, yours is not to reason why, but to do and die."
Yes, and in combat you can't stop to question strategies, let alone tactics. On the other hand, that was the Nazi Nuremberg defense of "I was just following orders". Walking the line between those two and, say, refusing to participate in a Mai Lai massacre, is an incredibly tough job and one that I would argue US military personnel have generally done an equal or better job of than anyone else.

"In the US it's been an all volunteer Army for a long time, none were made to do it, none were drafted."
Well, not quite so simple. Look at all the volunteers in the military and even more so in the Guard, who thought they would be signing up for specific duty over a specific term. Deploying the Guard to Iraq and Afghanistan, without a formal declaration of war, and then issuing "stop loss" orders to keep them there beyond the limits of their terms? Generated a lot of argument among a lot of folks who "knew" what was legal, didn't it?

In any case, today's terribly vague press announcement seems to indicate that these issues are being taken into consideration. The gist of it seems to be that engineers and medical personal will be dispatched to erect 17 hospitals (100 bed each) along with some type of training facility, to train indigenous personnel, who will then staff the hospitals and take the risk of contact.

A very logical and sensible plan, IF the perimeters aren't breached and IF rioting or other problems don't cause a problem. Washington often makes careful plans and forgets, the "enemy" hasn't and won't sign off on them. Like the way they are saying a coalition will rebuild and retrain the Iraqi Army to deal with ISIS. Funny, I thought we spent a decade doing that already and...it didn't work.

I very much value the warriors, and it is because I value them that I will not ask them to be cannon fodder. Or, to enter a plague zone when they don't need to. On the other hand, our own military has a long record of using them as cannon fodder. Atomic bomb tests, with live observers irradiated en masse, remember? There's a long and carefully ignored history of those type of events. Loyalty, bravery, enthusiasm, are all good things. But only in the right cause.

17 hospitals? A good first step, but if I believe the numbers from WHO and CDC, way less than is needed right now. A good "domestic" bioterrorism exercise for DHS though. (Shhh! Don't tell anyone, that alone can justify the cost.)
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Old 16-09-2014, 14:21   #243
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

I am not saying that we should send troops, just trying to bring up the reality of if your given a lawful order, you must obey it. I'm sure not many would have landed at Omaha beach if given the choice, or charged into no-mans land in WWI. I've always thought the "one weekend a month and two weeks a year" thing was bunk, do people not see through that?
I went to Bosnia guaranteed that we couldn't stay more than 180 days, because law said 180 days was a PCS and the Army would have to pay to send our families home and other PCS events. Was there for a couple of months when they Army invented this new thing, called a TCS, a TCS tripped no PCS events and could last as long as the needs of the Army warrantied.
PCW = Permeant Change of Station, TCS = Temporary.

This is the way it is. May or may not be right, if you don't like it, don't join. It is NOT like civilian employment, you don't have rights civilians have and you cannot quit, it's like Prison, you WILL serve your sentence

Nurenburg, Nazis and Mai lai? what have atrocities got anything to do with this?

Lawful order, if you had served you would understand that if given an un-lawful order your response should be. "I don't understand what your order Sir, could you explain better"? Seems in the past most un-lawful orders were given like "go take care of the prisoners", but when specifically asked, are you telling me to go commit murder almost always the order has been rescinded
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Old 16-09-2014, 14:27   #244
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

One thing I want you to understand, the military is NOT in charge of itself. The Generals and Admirals do NOT decide whether to go or not.
ALL that is done by Civilian leadership. If you don't think the military should or should not do something, raise hell with your elected officials, the military is just a tool that they use, but ultimately the Civilians are in charge.
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Old 16-09-2014, 14:34   #245
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

I can't edit well with this Ipad, but a little clarification on lawful vs un-lawful order.
In 1982 in Basic Training as a Private, I was very well made aware about the difference, and it was made very clear to me that my duty was to refuse an un-lawful order, and if I obeyed, I was subject to UCMJ, that I was only obeying orders was no defense.
One of the most demoralizing things that can happen to a military unit is participation in an illegal activity.
I was the first aviation unit to go in Bosnia, actually we were in Hungary first, we bent over backwards to make certain the civilian populace understood that we were not a bunch of thugs, that we were subject to the same laws that they were etc. It took awhile for them to believe that as they had been occupied in the recent past, but once that sunk in, many became good friends.
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Old 16-09-2014, 15:37   #246
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Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
You are right that alarm bells are ringing We are witnessing right now how the world might evolve without significant western power projection. Since many (most) of us don't like western intervention in any part of the world this is a very interesting time. It appears we are going to find out what a world with less western intervention looks like within a generation. It is surprising almost everyone the rapid changes happening after just a decade of continual reduction in western influence.

China has invested a lot of money and time in Africa for the past 20 years or so. It will be interesting to see if their values compel them to help the poor people of west Africa.

Given " we,re" about to bomb the ass out of ISIL, I don't see this fabled " less western intervention" any day soon. Don't hold your breath waiting !

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Old 16-09-2014, 15:53   #247
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

hellosailor,

Sad for your cynicism and/or conspiricism.
People actually do things from an altruistic consciousness.
More than you'll ever know perhaps.
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Old 16-09-2014, 17:11   #248
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

Arthur, he is actually correct, at least as far as I could tell anyway. About stop loss etc and everything else military. Just I wanted to point out as a military member, you don't have the free will to chose your fate.
As far as things being done as it's the right thing to do, I'm afraid that is often not the case. Usually if you look, you can find a financial reason for most everything our military is sent to do.
I attended an Officers call at camp Doha Kuwait, one thing the General said that I though was interesting was that we were there because Soccer Moms didn't want to pay $2 a gl for gas in their SUV's, it was as simple as that.
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Old 16-09-2014, 18:32   #249
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

"Nurenburg, Nazis and Mai lai? what have atrocities got anything to do with this? "
Atrocities? No, you are looking at a facet I'm not referring to.

Many Nazi officers at Nuremberg were accused of atrocities. Their defense was "I was an officer obeying the orders of my superior." Doesn't matter what those orders were, a good German officer was taught to rigidly obey the chain of command. (Which is one reason that the D-Day attacks succeeded, Hitler has given orders not to be disturbed so he got the news a bit late.)

Mai Lai? The point is, US officers failed to stop and challenge their colleagues and superiors. And then failed to report the war crimes for some time. Again, it was a case of "don't challenge, do what you're told" and follow the pack. Good or bar, right or wrong, is not the issue.

American officers are supposed to *think*. As are voters. Both often fail to.

D-Day was a case of necessary cannon fodder, a case where incredible losses would be necessary to accomplish a necessary goal. As opposed to Gallipoli, which was so embarrassing that it was practically wiped from the history books for two generations.

As to politicians and not generals being in charge of a war...I think that the politicians should be given the right to declare war, as they do. But once they have declared it? Lose the dogs of war and then gtf out of the way. Let the professionals do what needs to be done, period. But don't waste their lives on things that don't need them.

-------------
"if you don't like it, don't join. "
Right, except a lot of folks didn't join the Army, they thought they joined the Guard. Or the Reserve. And very few folks understand who or what the National Guard is or isn't. Last time I looked, even the official NG history site didn't list the actual legislation that created the Guard. Starting with the Militia Act of 1903, there are several pieces of legislation that define the NG, and unless you go to a reference library to look them up, you won't find them all. Which might explain why the associations of state governors have even gone to court trying to prevent the misuse of their Guard in foreign military actions unrelated to national defense.

But that's an old federal game, and just like the Gulf of Tonkin incident (since proven to be a total fabrication) it only goes to show that the military are often abused by the politicians, as well as the upper command.
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Old 16-09-2014, 18:41   #250
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pirate Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

Uh oh. Nuremberg, Nazis, and Mai Lai in the same sentence? Not even close. Where do you guys get this stuff?
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Old 16-09-2014, 19:13   #251
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
...
Lawful order, if you had served you would understand that if given an un-lawful order your response should be. "I don't understand what your order Sir, could you explain better"? Seems in the past most un-lawful orders were given like "go take care of the prisoners", but when specifically asked, are you telling me to go commit murder almost always the order has been rescinded
Ha ha ha ! Good stuff. Man, the crap we can read on the Internet!

These situations were not verbalized as you suggest. What needed to happen next was understood. There was no conversation and no remorse.

I wasn't at My Lai but I know exactly how it went down. What you ladies don't understand is that kind of action happened many times.
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Old 16-09-2014, 22:47   #252
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Re: Ebola Fears in the Canary Islands

This thread has just got so far off topic that we are going to close it. It's a long way down to the bottom but it managed to get there very quickly. More a push than a jump I think.

Coops.
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