Drogue Failures

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

Sailrite quit supplying the JSD cones, because of liability. We also think it might have something to do with the unnecessary smear campaign that occurred against Sailrite. Matt from Sailrite was upset by the forum attack and contacted Zack Smith to learn more about why the JSD cones can fail. The following is an e-mail conversation between Matt and Smith a couple of years ago. The only relevant details removed are what Matt posted online and Smith’s linked research showing JSD weight requirements:

“Hi Zack,
I was wondering if I could bug you about a current questions we are getting on the JSD. There is a lot of talk going around about using heavy 6.5 oz Dacron to make the cones so they don’t fall apart during the first use of the drogue. I wrote the reply below which is my stance on the current line of questioning. I know you are very knowledgeable about safety devices in general so I thought of you as an expert to give your input on cone weight…”

“Hi Matt,

Nice talking with you today.

Comments left on our comparison video from Dave (ace sailmakers) and Fiorentino cover the amounts of weight recommended for the Jordan Series Drogue. It might be a good idea to know what the discrepancies are for any future posting on the forums or your own blog. At least you will be accurate regardless of what anyone may claim. Let me know if you run into problems from any arm chair sailors or fake bloggers. We can always help you out if Fiorentino has an account with the forum.

As we already discussed, it's irrelevant how beefy you make your equipment if shock loading persists while deploying any equipment. Also, something I forgot to mention to you. It's possible a customer may actually damage the cones during the retrieval process and mistakenly think it was from actual use. I've damaged cones because they tend to get caught up on the winch if I'm not careful. I shot video with a well-known sailing couple (not edited yet) where the cones were damaged at the winch and quarter chock. The downward pull was probably why the cones became knotted up at the chock. Boat design may have factored into the cone damage at the quarter as I've not experienced that particular issue until the video shoot.

Fiorentino has a friendly repair or replacement policy regarding their equipment, because they have had a couple of commercial fisherman claim the chute just broke. After letting the fishermen know Fiorentino replaces it for free regardless of circumstance, the fishermen finally admit to running over the parachute! Sometimes people are afraid to admit they made a mistake…”

For the record, Sailrite is our competitor, but we recommend their company. The company is a family run business who care about their customers. The moment Sailrite stopped supplying their cone kit is when the importers likely raised their prices. Without competition you tend to see cheaper product at higher prices.

I bought my cones from Ocean Brake, whose site is down at the moment.


They are hemmed on both sides and look sturdy. Can't say how well they will hold up, though, as I haven't deployed the drogue in anger so far.

[JPA Cate]

Suzanne Huber-Curphey showed us the new cones she's been sewing. She has been making them out of Weather Max, and hemming both ends of the cones, straight stitch, plus zig-zag. She had worn out her old ones.

Obviously, the hemming protects the cones, the heat sealed edges are just fragile, and need the support of being hemmed.

Ann

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

Sailrite quit supplying the JSD cones, because of liability. We also think it might have something to do with the unnecessary smear campaign that occurred against Sailrite. Matt from Sailrite was upset by the forum attack and contacted Zack Smith to learn more about why the JSD cones can fail. The following is an e-mail conversation between Matt and Smith a couple of years ago. The only relevant details removed are what Matt posted online and Smith’s linked research showing JSD weight requirements:

“Hi Zack,
I was wondering if I could bug you about a current questions we are getting on the JSD. There is a lot of talk going around about using heavy 6.5 oz Dacron to make the cones so they don’t fall apart during the first use of the drogue. I wrote the reply below which is my stance on the current line of questioning. I know you are very knowledgeable about safety devices in general so I thought of you as an expert to give your input on cone weight…”

“Hi Matt,

Nice talking with you today.

Comments left on our comparison video from Dave (ace sailmakers) and Fiorentino cover the amounts of weight recommended for the Jordan Series Drogue. It might be a good idea to know what the discrepancies are for any future posting on the forums or your own blog. At least you will be accurate regardless of what anyone may claim. Let me know if you run into problems from any arm chair sailors or fake bloggers. We can always help you out if Fiorentino has an account with the forum.

As we already discussed, it's irrelevant how beefy you make your equipment if shock loading persists while deploying any equipment. Also, something I forgot to mention to you. It's possible a customer may actually damage the cones during the retrieval process and mistakenly think it was from actual use. I've damaged cones because they tend to get caught up on the winch if I'm not careful. I shot video with a well-known sailing couple (not edited yet) where the cones were damaged at the winch and quarter chock. The downward pull was probably why the cones became knotted up at the chock. Boat design may have factored into the cone damage at the quarter as I've not experienced that particular issue until the video shoot.

Fiorentino has a friendly repair or replacement policy regarding their equipment, because they have had a couple of commercial fisherman claim the chute just broke. After letting the fishermen know Fiorentino replaces it for free regardless of circumstance, the fishermen finally admit to running over the parachute! Sometimes people are afraid to admit they made a mistake…”

For the record, Sailrite is our competitor, but we recommend their company. The company is a family run business who care about their customers. The moment Sailrite stopped supplying their cone kit is when the importers likely raised their prices. Without competition you tend to see cheaper product at higher prices.

Zack,

Just to be clear, the cones that we used as supplied by Sailrite were lightweight cloth and frayed at both ends during a short deployment of several hours in non-life threatening conditions. We use chain and old chainplates with a combined weight of 50 lbs at the end of our 150 cone drogue, although the Sailrite instructions specified only 15lbs. Retrieval was smooth, done by hand without winches and with no trauma to the cones. I contacted Sailrite to report on our experience as I assumed they would want to know about this issue and takes steps to remedy it. The reply I received made it clear that they felt that the series drogue is a one-time-use only device and that mine had functioned as designed. I disagree. I believe than any drag device should be able to withstand extended and repeated deployments. Hence my comment that it is probably a good thing that Sailrite is no longer in the drogue business. I'm not trying to "smear" Sailrite as I think they are a great company and I continue to be a frequent customer, but I think that, given their understanding of drogues, it is best that, for whatever reason, they are no longer offering kits.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

..... I disagree. I believe than any drag device should be able to withstand extended and repeated deployments. .?.

Its certainly reasonable to say that a very limited number of survival storms is the limit of use, but the unit should work just fine with multiple deployments in less severve conditions.

Originally Posted by Fi2010
As we already discussed, it's irrelevant how beefy you make your equipment if shock loading persists while deploying any equipment. Also, something I forgot to mention to you. It's possible a customer may actually damage the cones during the retrieval process and mistakenly think it was from actual use.

Its really unreasonable to expect a user to deploy and retrieve a drogue with text book precision given the conditions that these take place in. The device needs to be constructed to allow for the less than graceful crew work that a storm and fatigue induces.

[kmacdonald]

Anyone that blames drogue failure on retrieval practices or shock loading (which does not happen) is immediately discredited in my book. Ditto for amount of weight used at the end.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Zack,

Just to be clear, the cones that we used as supplied by Sailrite were lightweight cloth and frayed at both ends during a short deployment of several hours in non-life threatening conditions. We use chain and old chainplates with a combined weight of 50 lbs at the end of our 150 cone drogue, although the Sailrite instructions specified only 15lbs. Retrieval was smooth, done by hand without winches and with no trauma to the cones. I contacted Sailrite to report on our experience as I assumed they would want to know about this issue and takes steps to remedy it. The reply I received made it clear that they felt that the series drogue is a one-time-use only device and that mine had functioned as designed. I disagree. I believe than any drag device should be able to withstand extended and repeated deployments. Hence my comment that it is probably a good thing that Sailrite is no longer in the drogue business. I'm not trying to "smear" Sailrite as I think they are a great company and I continue to be a frequent customer, but I think that, given their understanding of drogues, it is best that, for whatever reason, they are no longer offering kits.

Mike,

Fiorentino is a woman owned company. We ladies are the ones whom post. Although, we do bug Zack Smith and our Naval engineer to review the technical portions of our posts. Zack actually refers to us as his three wives, because, as he puts it, we constantly “nag him every five minutes” and provide “no fringe benefits.”

We already acknowledged how cheap parts can break. It only makes sense.

Sailrite followed Ace Sailmakers weight recommendations for the JSD. Ace posted similar recommendations on our YouTube channel. Maybe Sailrite also mirrored their cone kit after Ace…we don’t know.

We’ll have to agree with you, “any drag device should be able to withstand extended and repeated deployments.”

One important point you’re overlooking. If you beef up the cones, they can still break apart if the equipment isn’t properly weighted and you ignore the Constant Rode Tension program. If the JSD still has breakage issues, which it shouldn’t, then let us know.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Its certainly reasonable to say that a very limited number of survival storms is the limit of use, but the unit should work just fine with multiple deployments in less severve conditions.

Its really unreasonable to expect a user to deploy and retrieve a drogue with text book precision given the conditions that these take place in. The device needs to be constructed to allow for the less than graceful crew work that a storm and fatigue induces.

Agreed. That’s why we have YouTube instruction videos showing beginners and professionals deploying the equipment. Lets everyone use whatever information they think will work best for them.

[thinwater]

The two worst storm I've been in shared two characteristics that made them bad. The waves were coming from two directions with stacked wave lengths, and the wind was shifting rapidly. Very uncomfortable.



There was nothing constant about them. That is what made them tiring. Neither was truly extreme. But every time I read or hear about adjusting the rode to X-number of waves or constant anything I'm puzzled. Waves usually break because they are crossing. The problem in Suzie's storm, as I recall, is that breaking waves were coming from angles. No constant anything.


The only time I deployed a chute out of need it was only breezy. The reason was to delay landfall and because I was too tired to make good decisions. I had another crew member, who kept some watch while I slept, but they were not a sailor. I really needed a system that was idiot proof and did not require any adjustment. My system had all the standard parts and worked fine. But it was not bad weather.



Just sayin' things need to be simple and they need to assume some errors from tired sailors that are operating at about 50% of their normal IQ.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The two worst storm I've been in shared two characteristics that made them bad. The waves were coming from two directions with stacked wave lengths, and the wind was shifting rapidly. Very uncomfortable.

There was nothing constant about them. That is what made them tiring. Neither was truly extreme. But every time I read or hear about adjusting the rode to X-number of waves or constant anything I'm puzzled. Waves usually break because they are crossing. The problem in Suzie's storm, as I recall, is that breaking waves were coming from angles. No constant anything.

The only time I deployed a chute out of need it was only breezy. The reason was to delay landfall and because I was too tired to make good decisions. I had another crew member, who kept some watch while I slept, but they were not a sailor. I really needed a system that was idiot proof and did not require any adjustment. My system had all the standard parts and worked fine. But it was not bad weather.

Just sayin' things need to be simple and they need to assume some errors from tired sailors that are operating at about 50% of their normal IQ.

Dependent on your situation, if you have waves coming from different directions, It’s usually best to keep your boat moving. Commercial fishermen would jog into the weather by slowly motoring into the seas. Sail boat sailors forereach. If your boat is disabled or the crew is incapable of sailing, then decide on whether to keep your bow or stern into the weather with a drag device. Or you can lay ahull, which we don’t recommend.

We would deploy a para-anchor to keep the bow into the seas if our boat was disabled. Mostly because of Gerrard Fiorentino and Zack Smith’s description of deploying equipment in storm conditions, including two hurricanes in Mexico and Tropical storm Dean in the Virgin Islands.

Bottom line, it doesn’t sound like fun. With a deployed para-anchor your boat will occasionally be knocked around if waves are approaching from two different directions. Same with the JSD. With a speed-limiting drogue the boat can be knocked off a wave and fall heavily into the trough. If you choose to run with your boat. Either way, it beats drifting aimlessly at sea.

“But every time I read or hear about adjusting the rode to X-number of waves or constant anything I'm puzzled.”

Are you referring to one element of the Constant Rode Tension program? Because there’s several more options. We have exchanged numerous e-mails teaching you about our deployment methods and you’ve watched our videos. Some of our work is in your published articles so we’re confused about your statement. Maybe you can elaborate.

We 100% agree with keeping things simple. We feel Smith has achieved those goals better than anyone. Both in instruction and inventions. We may be bias, but we feel it’s true.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The two worst storm I've been in shared two characteristics that made them bad. The waves were coming from two directions with stacked wave lengths, and the wind was shifting rapidly. Very uncomfortable.



There was nothing constant about them. That is what made them tiring. Neither was truly extreme. But every time I read or hear about adjusting the rode to X-number of waves or constant anything I'm puzzled. Waves usually break because they are crossing. The problem in Suzie's storm, as I recall, is that breaking waves were coming from angles. No constant anything.


The only time I deployed a chute out of need it was only breezy. The reason was to delay landfall and because I was too tired to make good decisions. I had another crew member, who kept some watch while I slept, but they were not a sailor. I really needed a system that was idiot proof and did not require any adjustment. My system had all the standard parts and worked fine. But it was not bad weather.



Just sayin' things need to be simple and they need to assume some errors from tired sailors that are operating at about 50% of their normal IQ.

I agree with all of that.


In a really bad storm you lose the ability to do any work on deck from a combination of its being impossible to be there, and exhaustion of the crew.


My plan for a survival storm is to lock down the rudder, leave up a bit of storm jib, deploy the drogue and go below and lie down. Period. No adjusting anything, no evaluating the wave period, no being on deck at all.


I think this is one of the main ideas behind the JSD -- it is not affected by wave period. You are basically anchored to the ocean in the most stable possible position -- by the stern, and moving slow downwind.


If any part of a drag device system requires adjustment or calculation of any kind, and speaking from experience in bad weather offshore -- I think that's a fundamental flaw, and I certainly wouldn't have it on my boat.


I have never deployed a drag device in anger, but I've been in some pretty hairy weather and I know what it's like. The tactic I have used, mostly successfully (I did get knocked down once in the North Sea, in a F9), is active steering downwind, sailing at a moderate speed with a small amount of sail up, deployed as far forward as possible. This works OK up to the point where the waves start to break (and so long as you have active, non-exhausted crew), but once you have breaking waves, then you depend on dodging the falling crests to survive. I've been hit by a falling crest once, and I never want to go through that again. The force is incredible. The hull is strong enough, but anyone on deck, tethered or not, is subject to being ripped off the deck and washed away, and the boat may be broached (as we were), rolled, thrown off a wave, pitchpoled, or whatever.



So if I'm ever in a storm like that again, when it gets to that point, I want everyone below and the ship taking care of herself, anchored to the ocean in a way that she cannot be broached or rolled. To my mind, the JSD is uniquely well suited to this use case. Mine is more than 100 meters long -- I don't believe there is any scenario, even a hurricane, no wave period value, no combination of waves coming from different directions, where it could be pulled out of the water and stop doing its job. Unless of course it breaks, or the attachment points fail.


Has anyone ever heard of a JSD failing to do its job, other than by breaking, or attachment points failing? I have not heard of a single case.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Has anyone ever heard of a JSD failing to do its job, other than by breaking, or attachment points failing? I have not heard of a single case.

Yes, there is at least one case, a boat in the south Atlantic (between Cape Town and s Georgia if I remember correctly) was knocked down and abandoned with a JSD out.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Yes, there is at least one case, a boat in the south Atlantic (between Cape Town and s Georgia if I remember correctly) was knocked down and abandoned with a JSD out.

The details of that incident would be really interesting.

[Breaking Waves]

My perhaps faulty memory is :

Was a traditional boat design, perhaps Taiwan built, lots of teak, full keel.

Single hander trying to complete a non-stop wrong way RTW.

Storm force.

Was knocked over, with rig damage and water in boat.

I remember thinking he had waiting too long to put some stabilizing sail back up and was probably wallowing.

Boat had a Chinese sounding name. I seem to remember there is some discussion somewhere on the Net. It was quite a while ago, ‘90s perhaps.

[Fi2010]

The Constant Rode Tension theory is solid. You don’t have to adjust anything dependent on your rigging setup. In some instances, it’s not about adjusting the drag device, its about changing the speed of your boat via motor, sail, or direction of travel. All drag devices, not just the product you’re promoting, can be deployed in a manner that never requires adjustment. However, that’s when proper weight placement becomes imperative. All explained in the Rode Tension program.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

The Constant Rode Tension theory is solid. You don’t have to adjust anything dependent on your rigging setup. In some instances, it’s not about adjusting the drag device, its about changing the speed of your boat via motor, sail, or direction of travel. All drag devices, not just the product you’re promoting, can be deployed in a manner that never requires adjustment. However, that’s when proper weight placement becomes imperative. All explained in the Rode Tension program.

You keep selling this "Rode Tension Program TM", and trying to drive us onto your website rather than explaining it. But why should those of us using JSD's care about this? As long as the boat is moving, a JSD will inherently have constant tension. That's the whole point of the design, and the huge advantage of multi-element drogues over single element ones.



In really big conditions, and if you had ever experienced them you would know, you don't have any choice at all about direction of travel, and you will have no way to control speed in fine increments. I would not want to depend on a drag device that required some kind of "Program, TM", which required adjusting anything, whether it is speed, direction, or configuration of the device, to perform well. If I ever again get into a situation where I need to deploy a drag device, there's not going to be anyone on deck.