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Old 29-05-2015, 06:32   #31
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

No kids. Just the wife and I. The boat is a Hunter 376, and the dinghy is kept inflated on the foredeck. We live in Florida and don't consider getting in the water until the water temp is above 80 degrees, so I find it amusing to read comments about "relatively warm 65 or 70 degree water." Just thinking about that makes me shiver! No desire at all to sail in places where the water is that cold.
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Old 29-05-2015, 08:30   #32
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

$4-5k will buy a nice dingy. As long s you can keep it in a place ready to launch, that would be my preferance for spending the money.

There are risks to all choices and if you cover all the risks, you have no money and your boat will sink under the weight of all the safety equiepment.

One idea if you don't have the space is working out a quick inflation system for a roll up dingy. You can make due without the floor boards as long as it inflates and holds air. Might be a buisness idea.
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Old 29-05-2015, 09:22   #33
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertsapp View Post
I read an article recently in which a USCG rescue pilot stated that the average time worldwide from activating an EPIRB until a helicopter is hovering overhead is 270 minutes.
As we say in winter climbing and backcountry skiing circles:

Moderate avalanche risks only moderately kills you.
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Old 29-05-2015, 09:28   #34
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

I have a Tinker Traveller (12-foot hypalon inflatable sailing dinghy) that I think makes more sense than a life raft. Either would be very uncomfortable, but at least with a sailing dinghy you can point yourself in a direction more favorable than being at the mercy of where the currents and wind want to take you.
You'd have to keep a sucker like this ready to go though, as it is a pita to set up.
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Old 29-05-2015, 09:43   #35
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

I don't believe expecting rescue 270 minutes after the EPIRB is activated is reasonable, people usually spend days waiting to be picked up. I have the inflatable liferaft, but it costs over $1000 USD to have it inspected and refitted. I just learned about the Portland Pudgy here and it looks like a viable more useful alternative. There have been some instances where the inflatable life rafts have taken flight after being deployed in bad weather leaving the crew standing on the boat. As a personal philosophy I will do my damnedest to insure I never have to use a life raft, and should I need my life raft, I will be stepping up to it off of the top of my mast, far too many people have abandoned perfectly serviceable boats to be lost at sea only to have their "sinking" vessel be found floating around sans crew.
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Old 29-05-2015, 09:54   #36
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
As we say in winter climbing and backcountry skiing circles:

Moderate avalanche risks only moderately kills you.
I like that. on the opposite end of the spectrum its like being a "little" bit pregnant

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
I don't believe expecting rescue 270 minutes after the EPIRB is activated is reasonable, people usually spend days waiting to be picked up.
Case in point check the Rebel Heart rescue thread. They spent days waiting for rescue.
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Old 29-05-2015, 10:06   #37
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

Forgot to add that the Tinker sailing dinghies have the option of a "life raft canopy" that offers some protection from the elements.
Nigel Calder is said to have a Tinker Traveller, so he must know something.
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Old 29-05-2015, 10:11   #38
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

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As we say in winter climbing and backcountry skiing circles:

Moderate avalanche risks only moderately kills you.
This a restatement of the old, "if it saves just one life" arguement and it's completely flawed.

Sorry but I deal with this in my job and it bugs the heck out of me. If you had unlimited time, money and space on the boat, you could make that arguement. In real life, all 3 of those are limited to varying degrees. If you take risk management to silly levels, you will never do anything.

Make an assesment of the risk, assess what you can reasonably do to mitagate that risk. Then decide if it's worth it.

Exmample: Assuming the OP is not a billionaire, would it be better to spend the money on a rigger to go over the rig with him and show him what to look for, a mechanic to give the engine a once over and some pointers on troubleshooting and a company to clean out the fuel tank so he doesn't have to worry about kicking up crud off the bottom and killing the engine in a critical sitaution. (not saying he needs to do these things just that depending on his assesment and the condition of the boat, they may or may not be better ways to spend that money to improve his overall safety.
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Old 29-05-2015, 10:18   #39
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

Sharks need to eat, too.
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Old 29-05-2015, 10:25   #40
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

Here is a cheaper, less protective/comprehensive approach, but hassle-free alternative.

Jim Buoy

I carry one of the smaller bright orange ' life floats' on the fore deck during all offshore passages. Lightweight, bullet proof, easy to deploy, no maintenance or recertification. I suspect several crew members could lay on top to get out of water if/when severe wind and waves abate. I can't imagine using a dinghy in heavy seas (don't think they are meant to handle that) and all I hear about life rafts is how miserable life is aboard... puke everywhere.
Of course, the sharks are happy to hear about my plan ,, but, but...
Cheers, Pappy
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Old 29-05-2015, 10:34   #41
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
This a restatement of the old, "if it saves just one life" arguement and it's completely flawed.

Sorry but I deal with this in my job and it bugs the heck out of me. If you had unlimited time, money and space on the boat, you could make that arguement. In real life, all 3 of those are limited to varying degrees. If you take risk management to silly levels, you will never do anything.

Make an assesment of the risk, assess what you can reasonably do to mitagate that risk. Then decide if it's worth it.

Exmample: Assuming the OP is not a billionaire, would it be better to spend the money on a rigger to go over the rig with him and show him what to look for, a mechanic to give the engine a once over and some pointers on troubleshooting and a company to clean out the fuel tank so he doesn't have to worry about kicking up crud off the bottom and killing the engine in a critical sitaution. (not saying he needs to do these things just that depending on his assesment and the condition of the boat, they may or may not be better ways to spend that money to improve his overall safety.

Actually your reading of the quote is flawed. You have read far too much into it.

The quote is: moderate avalanche risk only moderately kills you.

The statement simply points out that minimizing the risks in your analysis (moderate avalanche risk or 270 minutes in the water) does not change the degree of the consequence (e.g. death) when "bad things happen".

It really has nothing to do with if it saves one life. It has everything to do with accurate risk vs reward and risk vs cost assessments.

PS perhaps you do not backcountry ski or climb: there is no safety, there are only calculated risks.
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Old 29-05-2015, 10:38   #42
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

svHyte stated it best "Forget about yourself, but think about those that will be dependent upon you/your judgment".
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Old 29-05-2015, 10:43   #43
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

Steve Callahan was designing a folding dink/liferaft combo. I do not know if it is available yet. The idea of life raft or not also belongs with the concept of insurance. We all pray that we do not have a car accident, but we all pay for insurance ( or are mandated by law in California anyway) . A life raft is life insurance and we all pray that it is never used. If needed, then something should be there, be it a dinghy with some sun/rain cover or so on since the time it takes for rescue is not determined by statistics, but by the reality of the situation. life jackets are required anyway, so they should be onboard anyway. Do not believe long term survival in warmer water will happen or that warmer water will prevent hypothermia, unless it is at body temp or above. Make sure you have a good epirb, but also hope it is never needed. The only time you will know if you actually need a life raft is after the cruise. Good luck with your decision, you will be the one who will have to live with it.
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Old 29-05-2015, 11:08   #44
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

No doubt many (all?) cats still float when swamped. I remember seeing the Lagoon that hit the reef in BVI though, up to the flybridge so I doubt it would resist capsize in waves. And an upside down cat is not necessarily a protected, easy place to hang on to in bad weather, so a tethered liferaft may be a refuge.

Also, if only 1 hull gets holed, won't a cat possibly capsize or float on it's side?May not be a stable platform...

But mono or multi, if there's a fire, (which in my mind is the thing to fear given the complexity and amperage of today's boats)- doesn't matter float or sink, you're getting off...
For me, I would have a minimal liferaft for coastal offshore, and a full high quality liferaft for ocean crossings. Why skimp on the last resort?
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Old 29-05-2015, 11:11   #45
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Re: Does A Liferaft Still Make Sense? (or Cents?)

If you have been out in a good strong gale at night and would feel confident to jump overboard, perhaps with a broken arm then go ahead and ditch the raft... For coastal sailing in warm waters the 'ships boat' option is realistic but must be permenantly ready for launch and capable of handling severe weather. In the tropics a cover is a must. Also a good grab bag, remember you may be dealing with injuries as well. 4 hour may be average, or even typical but don't bank on it. You will need a big enough boat to carry it and a system to be able to launch and board it in bad weather to make this a realistic option.
I strongly suggest you take a good look at real survival situations AND rescue asset coverage before making the decision as there are plenty of senarios even in the caribbean where the 4hr pickup is not going to happen.
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