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**Dockhead** · 27-10-2016, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by powsmias

tethered to it shouldn't make a difference.. easily righted and self bailing, . . .

You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter if the liferaft or lifeboat flips over, because you can right it. On the contrary, getting spilled into the water when your raft flips is a very good way to get killed in big sea conditions, in a storm, at night, in cold water, etc.

The whole purpose of a life raft is to keep the crew out of the water. Resistance to capsize is a paramount quality.

Notice that I'm not saying that the Pudgy is worse than a normal raft, because I don't know. It looks like it might be much worse, but that's only because I'm guessing that the ballast pockets on normal rafts actually work.

Capsize is also why a normal inflatable dinghy is useless as a life raft in any kind of weather. Fine in a calm. But can you be sure that if your boat sinks, you'll have calm weather?

mikereed100 · 29-10-2016, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Notice that I'm not saying that the Pudgy is worse than a normal raft, because I don't know. It looks like it might be much worse, but that's only because I'm guessing that the ballast pockets on normal rafts actually work.

Capsize is also why a normal inflatable dinghy is useless as a life raft in any kind of weather. Fine in a calm. But can you be sure that if your boat sinks, you'll have calm weather?

We've disagreed on this point before, and it seems we are doomed to continue.

My feeling is that the ballast pockets on a life raft should prevent capsize when boarding and may (or may not) prevent wind induced capsize, but they will almost certainly not prevent capsize in a wave strike of any size due to the turbulent, aerated water produced by the breaking wave. This area of turbulence will extend down several feet in even small waves as can be seen in the photo below.

A dinghy, on the other hand, could be fitted with a sea anchor that could, in theory, pull the boat through the white water, lessening the chance of capsize. Although I would not want to have to right either a dinghy or a life raft that had capsized, I think it would be easier to right the dinghy. The thought of being inside a capsized liferaft in the dark is not comforting. It would be interesting to take a life raft with ballast pockets and a dinghy with sea anchor to the beach and test this in the surf. I will gladly take photos from the beach.

mikereed100 · 29-10-2016, 08:16

After spending a couple months in a life raft, Steve Callahan felt there must be a better way and developed the FRIB.

http://www.stevencallahan.net/images...signs/frib.pdf

http://images.nationalgeographic.com...24_990x742.jpg

Unfortunately, it seems like it may never go into production.

crabcake · 29-10-2016, 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel

There is no "can I do this or that" answer here.

Look up your state/flag regulations. Next look up the possible worst conditions in the area you are going to cruise. Then make your own mind on which devices and means you want onboard in case the mother ship goes all the way down.

Cheers,
b.

^^^ What he said!

In the final analysis, its your sole decision - none of the opinions here, for or against, will be of any help to you if you are in trouble.

**Dockhead** · 29-10-2016, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikereed100

We've disagreed on this point before, and it seems we are doomed to continue.

My feeling is that the ballast pockets on a life raft should prevent capsize when boarding and may (or may not) prevent wind induced capsize, but they will almost certainly not prevent capsize in a wave strike of any size due to the turbulent, aerated water produced by the breaking wave. This area of turbulence will extend down several feet in even small waves as can be seen in the photo below.

A dinghy, on the other hand, could be fitted with a sea anchor that could, in theory, pull the boat through the white water, lessening the chance of capsize. Although I would not want to have to right either a dinghy or a life raft that had capsized, I think it would be easier to right the dinghy. The thought of being inside a capsized liferaft in the dark is not comforting. It would be interesting to take a life raft with ballast pockets and a dinghy with sea anchor to the beach and test this in the surf. I will gladly take photos from the beach.

You wild azz guess is different from my wild azz guess. I'm not sure that it's right to call that a "disagreement".

If the normal liferaft is not more resistant to capsize, than the pudgy, then I withdraw my comments. But how do we know?

**Dockhead** · 29-10-2016, 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikereed100

After spending a couple months in a life raft, Steve Callahan felt there must be a better way and developed the FRIB.

http://www.stevencallahan.net/images...signs/frib.pdf

http://images.nationalgeographic.com...24_990x742.jpg

Unfortunately, it seems like it may never go into production.

That actually looks like quite a nice dinghy. I might buy it for its dinghy qualities, but I would not buy it for its life boat qualities. That's because Callahan designed it for his own problem -- he's like the generals still fighting the last war. I will not engage in the war which he had, because I will not be caught out with no signalling, as he was.

The task I expect my liferaft to fulfill is simply to keep me and my crew out of the water for the hours (not days or weeks) it will take to summon rescue.

crazyoldboatguy · 29-10-2016, 09:20

"The task I expect my liferaft to fulfill is simply to keep me and my crew out of the water for the hours (not days or weeks) it will take to summon rescue".[/QUOTE]

Exactly

Ocean Cowbuoy · 29-10-2016, 09:59

my grandfather would always say, "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it". We carry two liferafts plus our RIB. Try explaining to your family and crew as your heads all bob in the cold water hoping to be spotted for rescue why it was that you decided not to spend a few boat dollars on a floating platform of some sort. Just my opinion but that's what you asked for.

barnakiel · 29-10-2016, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikereed100

After spending a couple months in a life raft, Steve Callahan felt there must be a better way and developed the FRIB.

http://www.stevencallahan.net/images...signs/frib.pdf

http://images.nationalgeographic.com...24_990x742.jpg

Unfortunately, it seems like it may never go into production.

First and foremost thanks for bringing Steve's story up! He does deserve to be remembered and mentioned when we think about liferafts. I also think we should respect his views as he actually did it. The book is a great read.

I too feel some kind of 'boatlike' platform is desirable. Not sure it has to be rigid but sure it makes huge sense to be able to use the 'liferaft' not only as a survival platform but also as means of getting from A to B.

Today, thinking of getting rescued changed. We think more along the lines of pushing the red button then waiting for a ship or a chopper to pick us up. Maybe in this light a liferaft is a much better rescue device than it was de facto 40 years ago.

The boat as proposed by Steve, I like it. I would love to have one if not for the space limitations of our foredeck.

Cheers,
b.

captain58sailin · 29-10-2016, 10:10

2 things that really bug me about self inflating life rafts. #1) The cost of the annual service. 2) The cost of the hydrostatic release that has to be replaced annually. The initial cost while heavy could be expected because of the materials involved in the initial build, however the annual service, is mostly time involved, and the trained personnel with the appropriate certificate. I don't expect anyone to work for free, but I don't like getting gouged either. The price of the hydrostatic release is just ridiculous.

jackdale · 29-10-2016, 13:48

The OP has not responded in 4 days. Maybe he did need a liferaft; maybe radar as well.

captain58sailin · 29-10-2016, 15:07

Or an EPIRB.

**Dockhead** · 29-10-2016, 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

2 things that really bug me about self inflating life rafts. #1) The cost of the annual service. 2) The cost of the hydrostatic release that has to be replaced annually. The initial cost while heavy could be expected because of the materials involved in the initial build, however the annual service, is mostly time involved, and the trained personnel with the appropriate certificate. I don't expect anyone to work for free, but I don't like getting gouged either. The price of the hydrostatic release is just ridiculous.

Modern rafts are packed in vacuum bags and only need the service every three years. The labor (in the UK) is about $200 per raft. Total costs vary according to what has to be replaced. I have two rafts and the cost chafes somewhat, bit how much is your life worth, and those of your loved ones?

I don't use hydrostatic releases.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

kmacdonald · 29-10-2016, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackdale

The OP has not responded in 4 days. Maybe he did need a liferaft; maybe radar as well.

Thanks for your concern. I didn't need either. I am out sailig now and don't always have access to Internet. I have decided that for me I won't be carrying a life raft. weigh, expense, time to rescue, and remote chance of ever needing it were the deciding factors.