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06-01-2017, 23:02
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#166
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,489
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPZ
Adelie,
Afterthought; if they are selling that many at 4k per unit that is 340k gross a year. They are not struggling at all even at that price.
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The hulls are $2700. Canopy is another $2k, but it is unclear how many folks are purchasing those or any of the other extras.
Lets assume $4k average per hull with all the extras. ($340K)
Lets assume 33% of cost for manufacturing including material, equipment, 3rd party fitting but not facility or salaries ($113k)
Facility rent: $2k/mo ($24k)
Lets assume $400/hull shipping including all packing cost. ($34k)
Assume they exhibit at 4 boat shows per year. (Lets call that $20k). Each show will cost:
$2-4k exhibition Fees
$1K in transport fees (gotta drive to get at least one of the hulls there.)
$1k in hotel bills including 1 meal per day, 2 people.
$500 in food bills and misc personal expenses.
$500 in printing marketing material.
3 years ago they had 2 employees, let's assume that's still true and they are making $30k/yr each. ($60k)
Let's say they spend $1k/mo operating expenses: website, phones, heat, electricity, water/sewer/garbage. ($12k)
That $340k gross minus -$263K costs is $77k net before insurance.
I have no idea what insurance would be for such a product nor what after market customer service costs.
Would you and your wife be happy living on $60k per year doing sales constantly, managing employees and production, spending 3-4 weeks per year living in hotels while doing boat shows and dealing with unhappy customers regularly?
My father has owned his own businesses almost the entire time I have been alive. Consequently I have some idea of how businesses run.
I am impressed that they have lasted over 10yr. I made a lot of guesses at costs but I would be surprised if the owners were making more than $70k per years.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
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07-01-2017, 06:43
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#167
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 260
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
I could pair down those costs considerably in Houston. Haven't shopped for one lately but not so long ago I could of rented a small warehouse for about $250 a month.
I wouldn't bother with boat shows; internet marketing reaches far and wide. For about 5k I know an SEO that will get you in the first page of google. Consistently.
Texas has a huge number if boat owners, there's a big market right here.
Yeah business is tough, over regulation doesn't help.
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23-01-2019, 22:26
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#168
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Aqualand Marina on Lake Lanier, Georgia.
Boat: Cape Dory 25D, 25 feet
Posts: 17
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikereed100
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I sure wish it would. I'd buy one.
__________________
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
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24-01-2019, 12:08
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#169
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Chicago
Boat: Alden auxiliary ketch 48'
Posts: 950
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikereed100
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I think many sailors may think long term raft survival scenarios are unlikely given the prevalence of modern rescue communication devices like EPIRBs and sat phones.
__________________
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
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24-01-2019, 12:13
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#170
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,489
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy
I think many sailors may think long term raft survival scenarios are unlikely given the prevalence of modern rescue communication devices like EPIRBs and sat phones.
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And there a lot of sailors who are surprised when their electronics don’t work.
I’m not saying the odds of that occurring are high, but they are not by any means infestimal.
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
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24-01-2019, 13:26
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#171
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 349
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy
I think many sailors may think long term raft survival scenarios are unlikely given the prevalence of modern rescue communication devices like EPIRBs and sat phones.
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Wishful thinking has killed quite a few people.
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24-01-2019, 14:04
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#172
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy
I think many sailors may think long term raft survival scenarios are unlikely given the prevalence of modern rescue communication devices like EPIRBs and sat phones.
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And modern examples shows this to be true. Calahans experience was 38 years ago.
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24-01-2019, 17:55
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#173
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Chicago
Boat: Alden auxiliary ketch 48'
Posts: 950
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie
And there a lot of sailors who are surprised when their electronics don’t work.
I’m not saying the odds of that occurring are high, but they are not by any means infestimal.
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I wonder how many folks are surprised when their properly maintained inflatable liferaft doesn’t inflate?
I’m not saying the odds of that occurring are high, but they are not by any means infinitesimal.
__________________
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
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25-01-2019, 03:09
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#174
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy
I wonder how many folks are surprised when their properly maintained inflatable liferaft doesn’t inflate?
I’m not saying the odds of that occurring are high, but they are not by any means infinitesimal.
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Actually the odds of that are SIGNIFICANT.
I am not aware of any single case of a crew that had to stay more than a week in a liferaft, in this century, when the crew had an EPIRB.
But every few years there is an incident where a life raft doesn't inflate.
It's really important to choose quality in the first place, and then keep them serviced. It is equally important to store them in an appropriate place where they can be easily launched in a distress situation, and not at the bottom of a locker somewhere.
I have TWO life rafts on my boat.
In reasonable weather and given enough time, I would take BOTH life raft and the dinghy, if I had to abandon, God forbid.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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25-01-2019, 04:10
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#175
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 349
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
Actually the odds of that are SIGNIFICANT.
I am not aware of any single case of a crew that had to stay more than a week in a liferaft, in this century, when the crew had an EPIRB.
But every few years there is an incident where a life raft doesn't inflate.
It's really important to choose quality in the first place, and then keep them serviced. It is equally important to store them in an appropriate place where they can be easily launched in a distress situation, and not at the bottom of a locker somewhere.
I have TWO life rafts on my boat.
In reasonable weather and given enough time, I would take BOTH life raft and the dinghy, if I had to abandon, God forbid.
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A raft can be inflated manually even in the water, and I'd suggest spending a day at sea in one before making a week seem trivial.
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25-01-2019, 07:18
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#176
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Chicago
Boat: Alden auxiliary ketch 48'
Posts: 950
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish53
A raft can be inflated manually even in the water, and I'd suggest spending a day at sea in one before making a week seem trivial.
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I wonder what it would be like trying to manually inflate a 4 man liferaft in 8 foot seas, in the middle of the night, all while trying to prevent your ditch bag from floating away.
Just sayin’
__________________
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
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25-01-2019, 07:53
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#177
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish53
A raft can be inflated manually even in the water, and I'd suggest spending a day at sea in one before making a week seem trivial.
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No one said a week or even a day in a life raft would be trivial! By all accounts, it is a horrendous experience. I have heard that on top of everything else (e.g. crowding), the motion is absolutely horrible, and everyone pukes, which in itself can kill you.
Not trivial, but - survivable. Separated from the ocean on a stable platform, and with shelter. That's the point.
As to manually inflating a raft -- I think you're dead if it doesn't inflate the way it is supposed to, at least in any kind of sea state. It will sink if it's in the water. The good news is that quality rafts, properly serviced, rarely fail to inflate.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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25-01-2019, 08:00
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#178
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy
I wonder what it would be like trying to manually inflate a 4 man liferaft in 8 foot seas, in the middle of the night, all while trying to prevent your ditch bag from floating away.
Just sayin’
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Uninflated life rafts don't float. If it doesn't go off, it will sink. Perhaps you can haul it back on board to inflate it manually, but, in other than calm conditions, and a slow sinking (certainly no fire), I wouldn't bet on it.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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25-01-2019, 10:37
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#179
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 349
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
Uninflated life rafts don't float. If it doesn't go off, it will sink. Perhaps you can haul it back on board to inflate it manually, but, in other than calm conditions, and a slow sinking (certainly no fire), I wouldn't bet on it.
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You should put one in the water uninflated and try to sink it, I'll watch. As I've actually done this in a twelve to fifteen foot sea, wearing a survival suit and 40F water at night I can say it's quite doable, not fun but doable. If you put a moment of thought into it and perhaps watch a raft be repacked you'd realize that they never get all of the air out of the tubes and as there's not much non-buoyant weight in one they float quite well uninflated. All that's required is to climb in, find and attach the air pump and start pumping, it doesn't even take all that long. I've been running commercial boats for years and have instructed at sea survival courses and some of the myths and wishful thinking I see here could easily be fatal. By the way that's me in my avatar with my hand on the gallows of the stern trawler Endurance in the fall of 1983 so I've seem a little of what I'm referring to.
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25-01-2019, 10:48
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#180
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Diego
Boat: Farrier f27
Posts: 704
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Re: Do I Need A Life Raft
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish53
You should put one in the water uninflated and try to sink it, I'll watch. As I've actually done this in a twelve to fifteen foot sea, wearing a survival suit and 40F water at night I can say it's quite doable, not fun but doable. If you put a moment of thought into it and perhaps watch a raft be repacked you'd realize that they never get all of the air out of the tubes and as there's not much non-buoyant weight in one they float quite well uninflated. All that's required is to climb in, find and attach the air pump and start pumping, it doesn't even take all that long. I've been running commercial boats for years and have instructed at sea survival courses and some of the myths and wishful thinking I see here could easily be fatal.
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Underinflated is different from uninflated. Without air there is no buoyancy, it is just a 100 + lb weight.
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