Dangers at Sea, Dangers on Land

[hpeer]

Maybe we can break up the argument a different way....there are two groups

A...feels safer being around humanity and has faith that, by and large, people are an asset and make one another safer.


B...feels safer being away from humanity, or at least by being able to manage contact with humanity. They see (excess) humanity as somewhat threatening, if unintentionally.

[captain58sailin]

Place me firmly in category B.

[letsgetsailing3]

There are certainly a fair share of cynics in the cruising community.

A different consideration is whether people are willing to acknowledge that there are risks in going out to sea. I'm not talking about anchoring off the coast, but about crossing oceans.

[captain58sailin]

I can be a cynic and cross oceans at the same time.

[Kenomac]

I live on land six months per year and cycle nearly 10,000 miles. I live onboard the other six months. There are many more risks of injury and infection on the boat, I bump and cut myself all the time, so does my wife. Rarely do I risk being drown on land, and during the process of sailing, there's always a relatively high risk of serious injury whilst tacking that would never be encountered on land.

Some areas of risk and concern:
anchor windlass
large jib sheets & winches
stubbing toes on just about everything
Falling down the companionway steps
falling overboard
getting hit by the boom
getting slapped off the boat by the main sheet pulley system
using the dinghy davits, those weighted metal balls really hurt
getting in and out of the dinghy
I can go on and on

[Andrew B.]

What a Pandora's Box, wrought with political opinion, and beliefs based
mostly on personal prejudice and emotion. ex. Comparing living in Chicago,
or Washing DC to coastal cruising or blue water cruising is a no brainer for
anyone with even a modicum of situational awareness.

I might be wrong, but I keep seeing the unspoken debate as some that
believe sailing with children should be regulated(Rlaph Nadar want-to-B's), and those that don't.

Life as we know it contains risk from conception(in some cases even
before) until death(again in some cases even after death). There is real
danger, and perceived danger. IMHO sailing with children is %95 perceived
danger by some. While others(I am in this group) see very minimal risk.
Those in the later group have the data, and stats in their favor.
But lets not let facts get in the way of someones perception.
I have power boated, and canoed with my children, and
grandchildren since they were small toddlers. All great swimmers,
in spite of a few minor cuts, scrapes, and bruises.

Put me firmly in category B too.

Originally Posted by hpeer

Maybe we can break up the argument a different way....there are two groups

A...feels safer being around humanity and has faith that, by and large, people are an asset and make one another safer.


B...feels safer being away from humanity, or at least by being able to manage contact with humanity. They see (excess) humanity as somewhat threatening, if unintentionally.

[Andrew B.]

Being a natural born klutz has surly increased my situational awareness, and
ability to excel at what some consider dangerous activities. ex. go-cart & motorcycle racing, skydiving, getting married, and getting a divorce which in the long run hurt a
hell of a lot more than a hair line fractured arm.

If one isn't paying attention walking across the street is just as dangerous, often times more so, than any activity in your list.

It's all relative !

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I live on land six months per year and cycle nearly 10,000 miles. I live onboard the other six months. There are many more risks of injury and infection on the boat, I bump and cut myself all the time, so does my wife. Rarely do I risk being drown on land, and during the process of sailing, there's always a relatively high risk of serious injury whilst tacking that would never be encountered on land.

Some areas of risk and concern:
anchor windlass
large jib sheets & winches
stubbing toes on just about everything
Falling down the companionway steps
falling overboard
getting hit by the boom
getting slapped off the boat by the main sheet pulley system
using the dinghy davits, those weighted metal balls really hurt
getting in and out of the dinghy
I can go on and on

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I live on land six months per year and cycle nearly 10,000 miles. I live onboard the other six months. There are many more risks of injury and infection on the boat, I bump and cut myself all the time, so does my wife. Rarely do I risk being drown on land, and during the process of sailing, there's always a relatively high risk of serious injury whilst tacking that would never be encountered on land.

Some areas of risk and concern:
anchor windlass
large jib sheets & winches
stubbing toes on just about everything
Falling down the companionway steps
falling overboard
getting hit by the boom
getting slapped off the boat by the main sheet pulley system
using the dinghy davits, those weighted metal balls really hurt
getting in and out of the dinghy
I can go on and on

Ken, the sailing risks that you list are real, but they are things that you yourself have a lot of control over. That is, by exercising skill and conservatism you can reduce the likelihood of them happening.

You gloss over the risks of "cycling 10,000 miles" miles where you are totally at risk of someone else running over you with their vehicle, or merely forcing you off the road. These risks are real, too, and are to a large degree non-controllable. Yes, you can mitigate the risks of cycling, but you can't avoid the drunk/hostile driver when he hoves up your bum at high speed.

Neither activity is risk free (few are) but the risks associated with sailing are, IMO, more manageable than those associated with road cycling, or countless other voluntary land activities.

Jim

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Ken, the sailing risks that you list are real, but they are things that you yourself have a lot of control over. That is, by exercising skill and conservatism you can reduce the likelihood of them happening.

You gloss over the risks of "cycling 10,000 miles" miles where you are totally at risk of someone else running over you with their vehicle, or merely forcing you off the road. These risks are real, too, and are to a large degree non-controllable. Yes, you can mitigate the risks of cycling, but you can't avoid the drunk/hostile driver when he hoves up your bum at high speed.

Neither activity is risk free (few are) but the risks associated with sailing are, IMO, more manageable than those associated with road cycling, or countless other voluntary land activities.

Jim

For what it's worth. From personal experience, just in my town in the last 15 years I have known several cyclists that were killed or seriously injured. Of all the boaters I know all over the world I cannot recall a single one killed while boating and only a couple of serious injuries.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I agree. I was just using that to counter the "snowskiing is more dangerous than boating" comment.

And about this. You made that claim and posted a list of boating accidents and maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a corresponding list of skiing accidents for comparison. So how do we know there were more boating accidents when you only posted half the data?

[skipmac]

As far as I know there is no world-wide data source for the number of children killed or injured while cruising. However, we have a pretty global bunch of members here with a huge range of friends, contacts and information sources.

In all my years of cruising and hanging out with cruisers and talking to cruisers I have never heard of a single child dying at sea, on a cruise or as a result of cruising. I am not including children killed in lakes and coastal power boating accidents but thinking only of real cruising, live aboards and similar.

Now this is no scientifically valid survey but anecdotally, has anyone ever known or even heard of a child that died because they were injured or sick and unable to reach medial care or any other cause directly related to cruising?

[JPA Cate]

Jim got close to how I feel about this. On the boat, there are potential hazards, for instance the block giving way when you're standing over it; but we know to never stand over a block, and teach whoever comes aboard to not do that. Basically, our potential hazards are mechanical, easy to predict, and avoid.

When at sea, there is weather to deal with, basic housekeeping & feeding, navigating or piloting, standing watches, and that's it. It is easier, simpler, less involved than city life. Plus, for some people, being on the ocean is mysteriously soothing.

It isn't that there are no dangers at sea, or on land. It is our perceptions and valuations of the dangers that differs.

Andrew B. keeps on mentioning that cruising could come under the influence of lawmakers. I surely do hope it doesn't any more than it already has. Lost privileges are unlikely to be returned.

Ann

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I'm happy to entertain any statistics you bother to find.

Since you were the one that made the claim about more deaths from boating that skiing I would think responsibility of supplying statistics would be yours.

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I'm pretty sure if that many people died skiing, we would have heard about it, as skier deaths are national news.

I would say that is a completely unfounded assumption which may or may not be true. but most likely not. If the death was a celebrity like Sonny Bono or Natasha Richardson (who both died in skiing accidents) it would make national news. Otherwise, quite probably not.

I know that I often see reports of boating deaths in Florida in the local papers that never make national news or even Cruisers Forum. I'm willing to bet that the same holds true for skiing accidents.

[Allio]

I wrote up a big rant earlier and then stopped myself from poosting it.

Reflected a bit and then spent some time trying to decide what was bugging me about this thread.

For me, the presumption here is the argument that exposing a child to *perceived* increased risk is reckless behaviour. In this case, certain parties are *uncomfortable* with the concept of an infant being homed on the water. For some people, their relatively healthy fear of drowning colours and prejudices them to believe that anybody who willingly exposes a child to that perceived risk is therefore reckless with their childs life. This should therefore be externally prohibited.

I tried to think of a couple of real world alternatives that *I* believe are infinitely more dangerous yet perfectly acceptable.

No one argues that driving with children is unacceptable. We try to mitigate the danger through the use of car seats, restricting children to rear seats, booster seats etc. So be it. Most would acknowledge that driving in icy or stormy or low visibility or when tired conditions increases the risk that that journey will end badly. That being assumed to be true should we legislate against or castigate parents who willingly take that journey, knowing full well that they are increasing the risk to their child? Should a policeman halt the journey, remove the child, and report the parents to social services for the child's safety as has been suggested online regarding the RH family?

The problem for me here is that the public are not educated on the realities of life at sea. Or the inherent dangers of the life that they live at home. And how those two lifestyles compare to each other.....

On a farther note, the idea that one has to be within a certain distance of a hospital is patently ludicrous. That to choose any other way of living is reckless..........

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Since you were the one that made the claim about more deaths from boating that skiing I would think responsibility of supplying statistics would be yours.

Originally Posted by skipmac

And about this. You made that claim and posted a list of boating accidents and maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a corresponding list of skiing accidents for comparison. So how do we know there were more boating accidents when you only posted half the data?

I think the statistics are somewhat misleading, and correlate to different years, but if you want to challenge my conclusion, have at it:

During the past 10 years,about 41.5
people have died skiing/snowboarding per year on average.

The National Sporting Goods Association (NSGA)
reports in 2011 there were 6.9 million skier and 5.1 million
snowboarders.


In 2012, the Coast Guard counted 4515 accidents that involved 651 deaths, 3000 injuries and approximately $38 million dollars of damage to property as a result of recreational boating accidents.The fatality rate was 5.4 deaths per 100,000 registered recreational vessels.