Dangers at Sea, Dangers on Land

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I think this is worthy of debate.

Really? You live with a doctor, but don't believe that being closer to health care is an advantage? You seem to be at odds with the Obama administration, who believe that government supplied health care is a basic human right and necessity.

I think your basic premise is flawed. I'll restate it, and you can tell me how I've misinterpreted it.

You're using bicycling on the street as your comparison. So what you're saying is that because your kids would do inherently dangerous activities on land, that you can better control their movements while cruising, so cruising is safer?

Have I summed up your argument correctly?

Because I'd be surprised if what you're saying is that being aboard a boat at sea is safer than being in your house, in a community with emergency medical facilities within a 15 minute drive.

I believe that cruising has risks that are higher than staying home. It seems to me to be basic common sense that if you go from a place where you have more relative control over water, food, shelter, and events and ready access to emergency care to a place where you have less control over these basic needs then you are adding risk. You're more exposed to the elements. This is why most people live in houses if they have the opportunity, and not small, fiberglass boxes.

Don't misunderstand me -- I think the risks are worth it, but I don't really understand some people's need to deny that they exist. For me, the dangerous bit isn't that there are risks, it's denying that they are there.

I'm quoting your orignal post because I think your arguments are basically flawed. You try to equate the entire cruising experience (being at anchor, in a marina, coastal cruising, ocean passages) with living on land. But when you look at the on land side of the equatin, you only allow specific incidents. If you want to compare - then you must compare the entire land experience with the entire cruising experience. Land experience to incude driving your infant in a car - adn the chances of the child falling down the steps, or being bitten by a tick or a sanke or beees, or a dog etc etc etc.

Yes, the greater the distance to qualified medical care, less chance there is of getting treatment. This is upweighed by the fact that cruising kids generally aren't exposed to all those sicknesses that kids in infant care or day care are exposed to. So perhaps you should rethink.

Although in the end - this is a personal decision by parents. I wouldn't put my kids in some of the cars I see people driving around in, but that is my personal decision.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Yes, the greater the distance to qualified medical care, less chance there is of getting treatment. This is upweighed by the fact that cruising kids generally aren't exposed to all those sicknesses that kids in infant care or day care are exposed to. So perhaps you should rethink.

Although in the end - this is a personal decision by parents. I wouldn't put my kids in some of the cars I see people driving around in, but that is my personal decision.

Oh, we can't talk about the risk of crossing an ocean? That was really the only part worthy of debate. I wasn't talking about living on a boat in a marina in the United States. Maybe I didn't phrase the original question correctly.

[letsgetsailing3]

In order to avoid confusion and needless (and endless) debate about how safe hanging out on a boat at anchor is, let's dive right into the only interesting part of the debate.

How risky is crossing an ocean with young kids? How do you determine the risk?

And do people really believe that this is no more dangerous than staying home?

Would it make more sense for cruising families to fly infants to the destination, rather than take them on the crossing? Wouldn't this make that part of the trip both easier and significantly less risky? Kids that age aren't going to remember it, so what's the purpose in taking them on the ocean-crossing part?

I don't think anyone here would advocate that this would be a decision to be made by anyone other than the parents (I'm in agreement), so I won't even raise that as a question.

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

42 injuries per million hours sailing? I used to race boats, and I got injured about once an hour. Maybe the difference is that I didn't report it as such to the insurance company. I know you're going to think I'm biased, but the study seems somewhat flawed.

Big difference between racing (or commercial fishing or recreational fishing for that matter) and cruising.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

Big difference between racing (or commercial fishing or recreational fishing for that matter) and cruising.

I agree.

Why don't we focus on just on crossing oceans, instead of agreeing about the relative safety of anchoring off the coast of a place with first world medical care?

I don't think anyone here thinks daysailing or anchoring are all that dangerous.

[Downline]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I agree.

Why don't we focus on just on crossing oceans, instead of agreeing about the relative safety of anchoring off the coast of a place with first world medical care?

I don't think anyone here thinks daysailing or anchoring are all that dangerous.

I agree

If you look at the comments and the statistics quoted then even daysailing and anchoring sounds more dangerous than crossing oceans.

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

According to these statistics, in 2012 there were 242 Auxiliary Sail vessels involved in reportable accidents in the USA. This resulted in 44 injuries and 12 deaths. This graph from the report is a good illustration of the relative risks involved in various boat types. As it illustrates, the real risk is exceedingly small ... far less than most common risks such as driving or even walking in an urban area. I can find no data on risks specific to young children (which seems to be the point of this discussion), but the obvious extrapolation from this aggregate data suggests a very low risk here as well.

So according to this chart, taking a stand-up paddle board across the pacific ocean is the safest...

[Zai]

At the risk of actually getting a reply.....I wonder if there are any stats to indicate whether sail east to west or west to east are inherently more "dangerous"?

I wish there was a toung in cheek smiley...

[ImaginaryNumber]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Are you kidding me?

More people die in boating accidents every year than snow skiing.

Here are some statistics.

• In 2012, the Coast Guard counted 4515 accidents that involved 651 deaths, 3000 injuries and approximately $38 million dollars of damage to property as a result of recreational boating accidents.
  • The fatality rate was 5.4 deaths per 100,000 registered recreational vessels. This rate represents a 12.9% decrease from last year’s fatality rate of 6.2 deaths per 100,000 registered recreational vessels.
  • Compared to 2011, the number of accidents decreased 1.6%, the number of deaths decreased 14.1% and the number of injuries decreased 2.6%.
  ...

Source: American Boating Association:Boating Fatality Facts

Originally Posted by accomplice

No, letsgetsailing, you have not summed up my argument accurately.
...
You cite data showing that there were 651 boating deaths in 2012, the vast majority from small powerboats. I do not know how to extrapolate from that to find children's deaths aboard larger sailboats while cruising. A fatality rate of 5.4 deaths per 100,000 registered recreational vessels is comparable to the rate of automobile fatalities -- about 13-20 deaths per 100,000 registered vehicles. One could argue that people spend more time in their car than on their boat (what a shame!), but boats typically have more passengers at a time than cars, and sailboat fatalities are much less frequent than powerboat or pwc fatalities. Thus my point is supported -- it is not immediately obvious, nor have I seen any good data to support the assertion that cruising on a sailboat is inherently more dangerous for a family.

I'm not sure how useful this metric is. I would speculate that many registered boats receive very little use each year, while most registered vehicles (as a comparison) receive hundreds of hours of use each year. A more useful metric might be fatalities per passenger hour, for both cruising boats and vehicles, or fatalities per person hour for cruising activities vs land-based living activities (excluding old-age, end-of-life events, which probably mostly take place on land, even for cruisers).

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by ImaginaryNumber

I'm not sure how useful this metric is.

I agree. I was just using that to counter the "snowskiing is more dangerous than boating" comment.

[GeoPowers]

My vote is that living on a boat is more dangerous than living on land for kids. Not a popular opinion around here, I know. IMO, it is a tradeoff for a better, more active and aware lifestyle.

FWIW, we've lived aboard for a little over 5 years now, ever since our youngest was about 15 months old.

Frank

[JPA Cate]

Maybe there is only "testimonial" data available relative to the danger [if any] of sailing with small children aboard. Ocean going families are very rare, in terms of the total population, and of those, there are fewer with children under the age of 3 or 4 aboard.

As to ocean crossing with those younger children, in our 25 plus years of sailing, only 3 families fall into that category--and none of them ever had any illness on passage. (One generally doesn't, unless one picked up something contagious ashore; in our case, one time in those years.)

Atoll reported that his family of origin traveled with infants, as well, no reported problems.

So I think we are going to have to put up with anecdotal "evidence", in the absence of statistical data. Generally speaking (from a long ago graduate level statistics course), one needs a sample of a minimum of 35 for studies relative to people. I really doubt there are that many families out cruising involving ocean passages with under 4's in any given year.

Ann

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by GeoPowers

My vote is that living on a boat is more dangerous than living on land for kids. Not a popular opinion around here, I know. IMO, it is a tradeoff for a better, more active and aware lifestyle.

FWIW, we've lived aboard for a little over 5 years now, ever since our youngest was about 15 months old.

Frank

Thanks for being brave enough to admit it. It's a tough crowd in here.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Maybe there is only "testimonial" data available relative to the danger [if any] of sailing with small children aboard. Ocean going families are very rare, in terms of the total population, and of those, there are fewer with children under the age of 3 or 4 aboard.

As to ocean crossing with those younger children, in our 25 plus years of sailing, only 3 families fall into that category--and none of them ever had any illness on passage. (One generally doesn't, unless one picked up something contagious ashore; in our case, one time in those years.)

Atoll reported that his family of origin traveled with infants, as well, no reported problems.

So I think we are going to have to put up with anecdotal "evidence", in the absence of statistical data. Generally speaking (from a long ago graduate level statistics course), one needs a sample of a minimum of 35 for studies relative to people. I really doubt there are that many families out cruising involving ocean passages with under 4's in any given year.

Ann

I believe you are correct. I don't think many people do it.

To the examples you referenced, I think we also need to add the Rebel Heart experience.

It's hard to deny that there is risk involved, as well as a pretty big hassle factor.

[Sailor g]

There are definitely dangers both at sea and on land. On land, we don't think much about the risks because they are everyday things. Most people who live in tornado alley (area in US where tornados are common) think people in California are crazy because of earthquakes-because it's an unknown danger. I drive one of the busiest California freeways now and I'd trade it anytime for being out to sea again!