Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-11-2011, 10:24   #91
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Two things come to mind here...
1) Your ability to select decent crew. Example...if your crew shows up with a hardware store raincoat and boots as weather gear">foul weather gear, this might spell trouble.
2) Talking them down from their panic. If I found myself in this situation I would assure them that I have their best interest at hand and head for the closest port to disembark them and with pleasure.
If point 1 and 2 fails, I like the 4 cell Maglite idea...
__________________

__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 14:33   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

unless she's taking on water and you can't stop it, you have no business hopping off... Moitessier put it best by saying "with your ports shut and your hatches closed, a boat should be seen as a well corked wine bottle..." or something like that.
if it gets to that point, put out the drogue, get inside, look for water coming in, and hold on!
just my thoughts on the matter...
__________________

__________________
jhkm12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 14:44   #93
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,189
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Two things come to mind here...
1) Your ability to select decent crew. Example...if your crew shows up with a hardware store raincoat and boots as foul weather gear, this might spell trouble.

What if the Skipper shows up like that... boots non marking of course....

2) Talking them down from their panic. If I found myself in this situation I would assure them that I have their (MY) best interest at hand and head for the closest port to disembark them and with pleasure.
If point 1 and 2 fails, I like the 4 cell Maglite idea...
Is a Maglight a Torch....??
or is it a Flashlight....:confu sed:
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 14:46   #94
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Is a Maglight a Torch....??
or is it a Flashlight....:confu sed:
As a club/bat, maybe?
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 14:47   #95
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,762
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

a few years ago i joined a boat after crew had called uscg to remove her from boat because she was scared for her life when the anchor deployed and they were half mile from rocky shoal. boat was fine, skipper was fine, girl was scared. no they do NOT force you off your boat.
when i asked a friend who was uscg rescue swimmer, he said they will NOT force skipper off boat.


so who is correct here-- seems we have many answers not accounted for by uscg personnel.

i choose to believe the individual who told me about the condition under which his boat had uscg approach to remove a scared crew and her dog, and the uscg rescue swimmer with whom i spoke.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 14:55   #96
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

I think it should be up to the skipper of the boat. Who else but the owner/skipper would know the boats capability?
As long as there was a usable life raft left, I would make my best effort to keep the boat, considering it's condition.
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 15:59   #97
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Is a Maglight a Torch....??
or is it a Flashlight....:confu sed:
Sorry Mate. I forget we are on an international forum. A maglite is a 2,3 or 4 D-cell metal flashlight....and yes...used as a club at times!
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 16:01   #98
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
a few years ago i joined a boat after crew had called uscg to remove her from boat because she was scared for her life when the anchor deployed and they were half mile from rocky shoal. boat was fine, skipper was fine, girl was scared. no they do NOT force you off your boat.
when i asked a friend who was uscg rescue swimmer, he said they will NOT force skipper off boat.


so who is correct here-- seems we have many answers not accounted for by uscg personnel.

i choose to believe the individual who told me about the condition under which his boat had uscg approach to remove a scared crew and her dog, and the uscg rescue swimmer with whom i spoke.
I'm not sure but can't the USCG call it "unsafe manifesto"?...and remove all personnel?
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 16:59   #99
Registered User
 
gixerjen's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Torquay UK
Boat: Snapdragon 890
Posts: 83
Images: 2
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Not sure exactly what others have said but I agree with some...... that's when you'd know if you'd chosen the right crew!

Personally, I don't think I would abandon my boat unless she was sinking (hypothetical as I've never sailed).... I also remember reading about the crew (and skipper) who abandoned ship in a storm, in a liferaft, only to never be seen again - the boat was fine. I think the lesson was to think very hard before you abandon your boat!
gixerjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 17:29   #100
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,762
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

i was taught to step UP to the life raft. no we didnt ever sink, but that was a part of our family sail training.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2011, 17:38   #101
Registered User
 
gixerjen's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Torquay UK
Boat: Snapdragon 890
Posts: 83
Images: 2
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i was taught to step UP to the life raft. no we didnt ever sink, but that was a part of our family sail training.
That's what I was was trying to say..... only nowhere near as eloquently
gixerjen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2011, 05:18   #102
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
a few years ago i joined a boat after crew had called uscg to remove her from boat because she was scared for her life when the anchor deployed and they were half mile from rocky shoal. boat was fine, skipper was fine, girl was scared. no they do NOT force you off your boat.
when i asked a friend who was uscg rescue swimmer, he said they will NOT force skipper off boat.


so who is correct here-- seems we have many answers not accounted for by uscg personnel.

i choose to believe the individual who told me about the condition under which his boat had uscg approach to remove a scared crew and her dog, and the uscg rescue swimmer with whom i spoke.
Every time this subject has come up people post their opinions or what they've heard others opine, insisting that the Coast Guard has a Policy of removing "All or None" when there's a call for help. I didn't believe that to be true, and that's why I contacted the Coast Guard and put the question to them directly.

It turns out your friend the USCG rescue swimmer gave you the correct answer, confirmed by the email response I received from USCG headquarters. To quote from the USCG response again, they make it clear that there is no "All or None" policy...
Quote:
4.2.1 Authority
The Coast Guard is authorized to perform any and all acts to rescue and aid persons and protect and save property at any time and any place where its facilities and personnel are available and can be effectively used. This includes the authority to force or compel mariners to abandon their vessels when a life-threatening emergency exists, and there is an immediate need for assistance or aid.

There is no ‘all or none’ policy. If the crew on a vessel feels that they are in danger, the Coast Guard will assist those crew members in distress.
It's crystal clear: there is no "all or one" policy. That's not to say that the on-scene commander won't order all off the boat in a specific instance, but taking all off when a few want to abandon ship is NOT the policy of the USCG.

If you read the entire response that I posted earlier in this thread, you'll also note that the CG has the authority to overrule a captain who wants to prevent crew from abandoning ship. So if your crew has had enough, calls the CG, and they send resources capable of evacuating crew, the captain cannot legally prevent the crew from leaving.

It's also clear that in certain extreme conditions, the on-scene commander can order everyone to evacuate, because under the applicable regulations, he has...

"the authority to force or compel mariners to abandon their vessels when a life-threatening emergency exists, and there is an immediate need for assistance or aid."

That is what happened to Ray Leonard, captain of s/v Satori twenty years ago in the so-called Perfect Storm. Leonard's two crew members wanted off, but he was convinced the boat could ride out the storm. They were lying ahull, and had taken knock-downs, and their liferaft had been ripped off the deck, but he was confident the boat could survive.

He contacted the CG solely to establish comms and let them know his status. He did not request rescue. Later one of the crew sent out a Mayday call without Leonard's knowledge nor approval. A CG Falcon jet was dispatched. Leonard told the jet crew that the boat was OK, but that his two crew wanted to get off. Later, apparently unbeknownst to Leonard, one of the crew contacted the Falcon and told them that they had lost the fuel tank, their engine was inoperable, and they were taking on water.

The Coast Guard vessel Tamoroa, had at that point arrived in response to the unauthorized Mayday, and consulted with headquarters in Boston. Based on the dire information from the crew (which was a lie, although the CG didn't have any way of knowing that), CG Boston determined that the required conditions existed to make the determination that all aboard should be rescued, and so ordered the Tamoroa.

The whole story of the Satori is here: http://nelie.hocking.edu/~geckler_e/SATORI/satori.html and it's very interesting reading.

Here's a photo of the Satori on the beach on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. She was recovered by Leonard, who eventually sold the boat.



Here's a video of the rescue...

__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2011, 06:24   #103
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

I have taken people (civilians) charter fishing, and I have worked with all make and manner of commercial fishers, and merchant marine crew. And when the weather was rough the tourists all looked to me for reassurance, which was freely given. A cheery positive demeanor helps if the crew is frightened. If the crew has signed shipping articles then it is okay to be Capt. Bligh; whom I believe was a much maligned sailor, no one wants to leave a south pacific island full of sunshine and polynesian beautys for a bunch of islands that are cold and rainy all the time. The fact that he was able to survive the mutiny and sail as far as he did, speaks to his ability as a seaman (That doesn't mean he was a good person). I don't like to sail with newbies, because of the preconcieved notions they bring with them, when the romantic ideal of sailing collides with the reality there are always some who have a hard time reconciling the different worlds (Ask any of my ex-girl friends.). I have had newbie commercial fishing crew that took to their bunks as soon as we cleared the cape, and I was forced to single hand for the entire trip, they didn't get their sea legs until we returned to port. If there is a person who is panicing and endangering the rest of the crew & vessel; then restraining them and heading for the nearest safe port is the only answer, get them off the boat as soon as possible. Frankly once ashore most peoples embarrassment over their panic will out weigh the need to get revenge in the form of lawsuits or filing complaints. As the Master be sure and document everything very well and have the remaining sane crew sign the log book as witnesses. One needs to exercise care and have an eagle eye on people who are on board that you have never sailed with, it is always a good idea to have a couple of shake down cruises before the big trip, to instill confidence in the Captain by the crew and to establish the pecking order. It also will help you find out if there are any problems with the vessel that need to be addressed before departure. You don't have to be an ass to get your point across and keep order, if you do then look in the mirror, you are the one with the problem.
__________________

__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Crew management, using an axe

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew of S/V 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship YADO Cruising News & Events 461 23-12-2011 05:24
Crew of SV 'Elle' Abandon Ship YADO Cruising News & Events 41 09-11-2011 11:20
S/V 'Panache' Crew Abandons Ship CharlieCobra Cruising News & Events 111 30-11-2008 10:09



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.