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Old 15-11-2011, 03:53   #76
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Seems it is mandatory to explain in great detail the possible situations. And the role of captain/owner and crew/guests.
And that restraint may be required and perfectly legal.
Use number 6389 for duct tape.
I wonder what the scenario of dave (captain) wishing to be rescued and the crew choosing to stay...
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Old 15-11-2011, 04:05   #77
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In reply to captain bills thread. ( too long to quote).

The issue is not so cut and dried. It would ultimately be up to a court to decide, assuming the appellant proceeded with an action.

The outcomes could no doubt range from acquittal through to imprisonment depending on the circumstances. It would be unwise here to speculate as to who would come out on top. No doubt the court would tale into account witness testimony, conditions, state of the boat , what competencies skipper and crew had , etc etc. The " master before God" stuff had unfortunately been dropped.

The more common thing is spreading panic and all crew want off or it's the wife that wants to bail out. In this case as I said the captain doesn't have a lot of options. You can't force the Crew to operate the boat.

Dave
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Old 15-11-2011, 04:48   #78
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

This 'restrain him' business....... How is that done exactly? ........ If he's wanting off, I'm assuming conditions are pretty bad..... So exactly how do you restrain someone who's going off the deep end when the boat is like a washing machine?

Now where did the Mrs put those handcuffs........
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Old 15-11-2011, 04:54   #79
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Our briefing always explains that we will almost always head away from the coast in bad weather and nobody has ever thought they were part of a democracy.

Our most experienced friend/crew has a dozen Transpacs and Bermuda races and return deliveries. He makes excellent suggestions understanding the I will listen and then make the decision.

However, I can understand the problems faced in bad weather by inexperienced skippers who join things like the Caribbean 1500 for the imagined mutual support.
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Old 15-11-2011, 05:00   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer
Our briefing always explains that we will head away from the coast in bad weather and nobody has ever thought they were part of a democracy.

Our most experienced friend/crew has a dozen Transpacs and Bermuda races and return deliveries. He makes excellent suggestions understanding the I will listen and then make the decision.
All this modern management speak is all very well. Few if any crew will demur at such a conversation. All will nod knowingly and agree that your in charge. Etc etc

However when the brown stuff hits the fan, you'll never know just who is going to react and in what way. If it's goes badly pear shaped and you have a loon on board, it can be very difficult. If on the other hand you just a failure of crew confidence, then in the end they are going to win and you are going to have to get them off.

People don't think rationally when they beleive rightly or wrongly that they are in mortal danger.

Dave
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Old 15-11-2011, 05:04   #81
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
This 'restrain him' business....... How is that done exactly? ........ If he's wanting off, I'm assuming conditions are pretty bad..... So exactly how do you restrain someone who's going off the deep end when the boat is like a washing machine?

Now where did the Mrs put those handcuffs........
Use an axe - when they are not looking

Something to bear in mind is that once you decide to go down that route you have to follow through to conclusion (whatever you decide that is).....as me Missus once said "Stab 1 time = no good......they angry you ". and she never used direct threats either - it's a sign of weakness. IME the absolute worst time (odds wise) is as part of an argument.......before is better, but after (if still around) works as well........

..........but we are probably heading to the boundaries of the "what if" scenarios

Of course the above does work in reverse for Crew on Skipper
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Old 15-11-2011, 05:05   #82
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

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The Coast Guard officer that I corresponded with doesn't agree with your statement, Raku. See my post, above. She made a very clear statement, contrary to what you're asserting:

Each instance is a judgment call. The story I told was true in every detail.
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Old 15-11-2011, 05:07   #83
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
All this modern management speak is all very well. Few if any crew will demur at such a conversation. All will nod knowingly and agree that your in charge. Etc etc
Lol!

I don't disagree with you, but getting folk to agree to something in advance (especially with a touch of explanation) does often mean less trouble later (ashore and afloat).

Obviously if they have mentally flipped then all bets are off.
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Old 15-11-2011, 05:23   #84
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
This 'restrain him' business....... How is that done exactly? ........ If he's wanting off, I'm assuming conditions are pretty bad..... So exactly how do you restrain someone who's going off the deep end when the boat is like a washing machine?

Now where did the Mrs put those handcuffs........
2x4, oar, boat hook, frying pan, then rope

basically this is now a battle condition, let the dogs out!

hey speaking of dogs............what are people's dogs doing during all this?
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Old 15-11-2011, 05:40   #85
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

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2x4, oar, boat hook, frying pan, then rope

basically this is now a battle condition, let the dogs out!

hey speaking of dogs............what are people's dogs doing during all this?

I can't talk about dogs, but my cats are always kept below when the boat is moving. If things were going seriously south, they would be in their carriers so we could get them off quickly and safely and so they would be under control in the dinghy (don't have a liferaft).
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Old 15-11-2011, 06:01   #86
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
In reply to captain bills thread. ( too long to quote).

The issue is not so cut and dried. It would ultimately be up to a court to decide, assuming the appellant proceeded with an action.

The outcomes could no doubt range from acquittal through to imprisonment depending on the circumstances. It would be unwise here to speculate as to who would come out on top. No doubt the court would tale into account witness testimony, conditions, state of the boat , what competencies skipper and crew had , etc etc. The " master before God" stuff had unfortunately been dropped.

The more common thing is spreading panic and all crew want off or it's the wife that wants to bail out. In this case as I said the captain doesn't have a lot of options. You can't force the Crew to operate the boat.

Dave
No doubt there would be an investigation, and like I said it surely would help to have a couple of witnesses. In a case where the whole crew is in a panic, you are correct, the captain can't force them to operate the boat. In fact, if the captain is out numbered by a panicked crew it might end up being the captain that gets put in restraints. Assuming the boat is still in fact seaworthy and the crew has called for a rescue against the captain's wishes by broadcasting a mayday or setting of an epirb, the crew is committing an act of piracy or mutiny depending on their status as seamen. While they may in fact be evacuated, and the captain cannot operate the boat alone and may also have to get off, it does not mitigate their crime. Panic does not justify criminal action. They should at least be charged and have to justify their action in court. Self defense is a defense against many actions that would normally be considered criminal, but such an affirmative defense is a matter determined at trial.

I can't help but wonder if the insurance company would pay for the loss of the boat under these types of circumstances. I also wonder who would be held responsible if someone died in the resue attempt. Would the person who took the action initiating the rescue be charged with murder or manslaughter?

The situation you posit with a wife wanting to get off presents a most interesting problem. As in most problems regarding wives there is no possible positive outcome. If you put her in restraints, you'll probably loose the boat in the divorce, if not, you loose it to the ocean. If you let her have the raft you at least have a chance of keeping the boat but you loose the raft.

Regarding the CG "policy" of all or none in a rescue, I doubt that the CG on scene commander is going to allow a single person to remain on a vessel that is more than 24 hours from port even in a seaworthy boat. The commander would have to be concerned with the ability of the captain to maintain the legally required watches.
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Old 15-11-2011, 06:54   #87
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Seriously? If the Captain didn’t want to get off and the CG ordered him to abandon ship.... What are they going to do shoot him? You think with all the other crap a rescue swimmer has on his plate that he is going to physically toss the Captain overboard and tell him to swim for the basket?

They can threaten all sorts of action once (if) you return to port in the US, but as with 99% of the threats made to cruisers transiting to/from Cuba, they are hollow.
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Old 15-11-2011, 07:24   #88
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Captain Bill I like your last two posts. I think the airplane analogy works well in that most people can better understand and relate to it. Especially 12 people on a jury. But rules and panic rarely go together. One instance an air captain bops a passenger over then head with an ax to subdue him. But then if a plane has crashed and their are survivors and there is a cabin fire the crew will explain in their pre-flight saftey check that all passengers should proceed to the six exits in an orderly and calm matter. Yeah, good luck with that.
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Old 15-11-2011, 07:29   #89
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

Rules for restraining crew or passengers.

1) Never take on crew or passengers that are bigger than you.

2) Remember by the time you realize that it was appropriate to bop them over the head with a frying pan to tie them up, that they were already two steps ahead of you and that's why you're on the floor tied up and waiting for the CG.
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Old 15-11-2011, 07:35   #90
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Re: Crew Wants to Abandon Ship, but Skipper Doesn't . . .

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Can you imagine the heat the CG would get if they took four people off but left one in dangerous circumstances, and then that person died?
Just how are they going to force you off your boat in storm conditions? All your crew are aboard the helo and now it's just you to come up.
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