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Old 13-04-2007, 19:56   #46
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Sometimes I think I should just keep my opinions to myself because it doesn't make any difference one way or the other. My beliefs have been taught to me since youth and I have been programed by American culture, there are millions of Americans that share my views. I choose to not debate gun issues any longer on this forum as it seems it is a very controversial issue because different nations have different beliefs. So therefore, I too am going to bail out of this one and will stay out of any future gun related issues and flame wars.

Just one more thing, an interesting statistic.
From my research, I’ve found the following:
a. The number of physicians in the U.S. is over 700,000.
b. The number of accidental deaths caused by physicians per year exceeds 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Doesn’t sound like a lot until you compare it to the number of gun owners vs. the number of shooting deaths in the U.S. each year (.0000188 per gun owner). Doctors are deadly, and you’re more likely to die at their hands than anyone else’.

I really enjoy this forum very much. Chuck
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Old 13-04-2007, 20:19   #47
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Just one more thing, an interesting statistic.
From my research, I’ve found the following:
a. The number of physicians in the U.S. is over 700,000.
b. The number of accidental deaths caused by physicians per year exceeds 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
Doesn’t sound like a lot until you compare it to the number of gun owners vs. the number of shooting deaths in the U.S. each year (.0000188 per gun owner). Doctors are deadly, and you’re more likely to die at their hands than anyone else’.
No doubt this "statistic" is put out by the NRA?

I am sure it would take a naive "American" to belive that crap..
(One doctor threat one patient per year?)

Being a US Citizen myself I am tired of paying the high cost of health care, health insurance, police presence and general BS to put up with a bunch of wannabe red-necks wanting to carry guns all the time...To "protect themselfes"..Against what? The next arsehole with a bigger gun?

That being said:

The ghost is out of the bottle, the guns are out on the streets and it is almost impossible to put the cork back in unless we stop the sales, the production and the promotion of guns around here.

It also take some growing up, some responsibilty and IQ among the brave gun owners..

Wasting my time and your time I guess, sorry Chuck.
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Old 13-04-2007, 23:46   #48
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New Zealanders not murderous...

If you scroll down to page 26 of New Zealand Crime Statistics you will note that the 2003-2004 figure is a total of 46 giving 0.1 murders per 100,000.

The resolution rate is 91.3%
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Old 14-04-2007, 02:00   #49
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"I had two of my friends killed in America by guns, I have never had any of my friends killed in Australia." How odd, I live in the US and have never had any of my friends of colleages in the US or Australia killed by guns.
On the other hand, I have been robbed at knifepoint and know others who also have been robbed at knifepoint. Then again, I also know folks who have *stopped* crimes by simply presenting a firearm, without the need to use it. Those incidents are not recorded anyplace at all.
Your observation, absent further comparable environments, is deceptively meaningless.

"However when we read in the local paper that a McDonalds has been robbed last night, by a guy with sharpened screwdriver. (true) you just know banning guns WAS the right decision."

I don't follow your logic there. Logic would dictate that banning guns was irrelevant, and that you need to ban McDonalds. Or, screwdrivers. You still have armed roberries--the weapon has simply changed. In fact, the numbers I've seen over here say that you have MORE armed robberies, more attacks, and more homicides now than before. Which is not unique to Oz, the same thing (crime goes up after gun bans, and goes down when gun licensing/ownership is allowed) has been documented all over the world.

If a society and a civilization has been built, people don't take up arms against each other. If they are taking up arms--the problem is not in the arms, but in the larger societal failures. Don't be misled, the people who villify guns as a cause rather than an effect are simply and intentionally trying to deceive you and subjugate you by blaming evil on the boogey man--and saying THEY can save you, if you only will vote for them and condemn those evil guns.

Hitler blamed it on the Jews, the Imams blame it on the West, but if you read Machiavelli's "The Prince" written 500 years ago, the blame game hasn't changed at all in that time. And he said the same thing about arms: That no government, no society, no monarch need have any fear of them--as long as they were taking care of business.

Don't be fooled by cheap politicians pretending to be saviors.
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Old 14-04-2007, 02:08   #50
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No, that stat is probably not given out by the NRA. But oddly enough, when Handgun Control Inc. brought suit against the NRA and asked the US Postal Inspectors to audit their magazines and take away their mailing permits because the NRA was allegedly committing mail fraud by publishing false "facts" and statistics?
The USPS found that the NRA had only published verifiably correct statistics. And oddly enough, HCI was found to have, ah, lied about many things. The damage was sufficient enough that HCI shut down and re-opened under another name after losing all their credibility.

The ballpark numbers are that some 100,000 persons are killed in the US every year due to medical errors, another 100,000 are killed due to pharmaceutical errors, and a third 100,000 are killed due to hospital errors like secondary infections. The hospitals have bitterly resisted using things like bar-coded wristbands and shorter shifts for interns claiming "its too expensive". They have now cut intern shift lengths radically, mainly after a couple of fatalities where interns were killed falling asleep driving home and a bit of other bad publiciity. And they're starting to use wristbands, because their accountants have finally explained to them that one wrongful death ($3 million dollars?) can buy an AWFUL lot of wristbands.

If you haven't read up on the horror stories about the number of avoidable deaths caused by the US medical "industry", you've really missed something important. It could kill you one day. The average hospital is perhaps less sanitary than the average home toilet. Because "housekeeping is shorthanded", i.e. the CEO wants that last hundred grand for his own pocket--rather than hiring four more janitors.
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Old 14-04-2007, 12:05   #51
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Not to belabor your point, Chris . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris31415
If you scroll down to page 26 of New Zealand Crime Statistics you will note that the 2003-2004 figure is a total of 46 giving 0.1 murders per 100,000.

The resolution rate is 91.3%
. . . but the figure you cite from the report should read "...0.1 murders per 10,000," a difference by a factor of 10. Still, your point is well taken and valid - murder rates in equally advanced industrial societies are markedly lower in those which regulate gun ownership.

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Old 14-04-2007, 12:59   #52
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]For a while I lived in Fresno California with a population of 400,000 and 100 homicides a year.

Scandinavian countiries and Switzerland have a higher gun ownership rate than the US with a fraction the gun crime rate, It has nothing to do with the number of guns, just cultural attitudes.They weren't raised on Rambo and John Wayne solutions to conflicts being glorified. So a change in attitude is abetter solution
Brent

Hmmmm I think NZ gets about 100 a year, pop over 4 million.[/quote]
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Old 14-04-2007, 13:58   #53
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Not sure about that, Louis . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Riel

Scandinavian countiries and Switzerland have a higher gun ownership rate than the US with a fraction the gun crime rate, It has nothing to do with the number of guns, just cultural attitudes.They weren't raised on Rambo and John Wayne solutions to conflicts being glorified. So a change in attitude is abetter solution
Brent
. . . inasmuch as a source I found:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

indicates that of Norway (32.0%), Switzerland (27.2), Finland (23.2), Sweden (15.1) and Denmark (n/a), only Norway's 32% approaches the gun-owning household rate of 39% in the US. Granted, the table at that link is a bit dated, so who knows?

Your second point is an interesting one, Louis, and may have merit. It intuitively seems valid, and I also suspect that the size of a given nation's population, as well as its homogeneity (or, more precisely, its lack therof) are important determining factors.

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Old 14-04-2007, 15:37   #54
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Ooo, let's make a valid comparison, like Sweden or Norway or Switzerland where the nation has had a thousand years to form a fairly homogenous population, and someplace like Fresno...in the unhappy melting pot of the US with conflicting Spanish and English cultures and heritages and lots of immigrants and a much different economic picture as well.

Or didn't anyone notice, those north european countries have much higher standards of living, much less poverty, and rank higher than the US on many scales of living as well?

More proof that if you take care of business, people just don't feel the need to go around killing each other.
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Old 14-04-2007, 16:21   #55
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We seem to agree, hellosailor . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
...in the unhappy melting pot of the US with conflicting Spanish and English cultures and heritages and lots of immigrants and a much different economic picture as well.
. . . on the question of non-homogeneity, but isn't it interesting that we then come to diametrically opposite conclusions? I feel that, because there are culture clashes within a society, it makes more sense to disarm. You seem to feel, and please correct me I have this wrong, that the existence of these cultural clashes makes arming and defending oneself the prudent choice.

If that is your view, it is entirely logical. And I think my view is equally logical, so I suspect that whichever conclusion one draws, it is indicative of one's acculturation.

The sad part, to me, is that both views are equally valid, and equally irrelevant. Why? Because the situation already is what it is, and whether one takes up arms for offense or defense, or chooses to remain unarmed, the situation will not change any time soon.

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Old 14-04-2007, 17:11   #56
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"If that is your view, " it isn't.

You're thinking their should be a causal relationship of some sort. I'm not. I'm saying that the statistics are skewed because of mainly gang violence and crime, and those are part of the problem of having a young melting pot rather than a more mature society.

But--I don't think that crime will be affected by anyone who tries to subvert my right to self-defense, and my obligation to the public defense. The right to keep and bear arms in America is not simply a right--it is a legal obligation. Members of a free society must be willing and able to take up arms, or they will be subjugated. That's world history, time and again.

I follow the thoughts of the founding fathers, who while debating our charter actually said that the only thing more frightening than the need to throw down our government AGAIN would be the need to do so--without the power to do it again. Anyone who thinks an armed populice is no threat to a government and military, needs to think "Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq, Vietnam" and compare and contrast that to Cuba and Czechoslovakia and yes, even Germany.

Anyone who thinks that someone else--anyone else--is going to defend you when you hear the downstairs window opening by itself in the middle of the night, is what we call "the recently deceased".

Guns are like any other tool. I've had some in the tool box that I haven't used in ten years, but that doesn't mean I'd let anyone take them away from me. Funny thing, but all the crime stats in the US demonstrate that when you disarm the law-abiding public--crime goes up, because the criminals now have unmatched power, and they can and will use it. Those cities that ban gun ownership (Chicago, DC) have the highest rates of gun crime. That's not my opinion--that's documented.
The folks who want to make my world safer by banning guns? Must have some other agenda, or must be really dumb, because everything they want to do "to make it safer" is proven time and again to have exactly the opposite effect, decade after decade, state after state.
So I'll vote for the folks who say and show "this works" rather than the ones that pander to my fears and promise salvation with smoke and mirrors. Like Rosie O'Donnell, who reamed out Tom Sellek (sp?) for endorsing the NRA, and said that there was no reason for anyone to own any gun. And then got caught out--because she hires armed bodyguards for her kids. "Liar liar pants on fire" anyone? She's not the only rabidly "no one needs guns" spokesperson who's been caught hiring guns, or licensed and owning one, saying "Oh, but I'm an exception, I'm better and trustier and needier than all of you." BUNK.
Sharks, feral dog packs (yes, we have them in the US), cougar incursions, burglars, all legitimate reasons to have enough power to make self-defense a sure thing.

The anti-gun debate is nothing more than a distraction, foisted on you by scaremongers who want to distract you from the real issues. Like tension and crime and violence, which cannot be solved by banning anything, requiring anything, or promising anything. It takes hard work and big bucks to address those issues, and the cowards blame guns, the same way Hitler blamed Jews, or the Imams blame the West, because an easy target distracts the rubes and gets the votes.

Don't be fooled. Read the history. Find the statistics from their sources, not from the distortions that are claimed. Many many "pro gun rights" voters were not pro-gun at all--until they started looking at the claims, and found out which side was lying, time and again.
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Old 14-04-2007, 19:24   #57
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But oddly enough, when Handgun Control Inc. brought suit against the NRA and asked the US Postal Inspectors to audit their magazines and take away their mailing permits because the NRA was allegedly committing mail fraud by publishing false "facts" and statistics?
Never heard of them, not a member.

Quote:
The ballpark numbers are that some 100,000 persons are killed in the US every year due to medical errors, another 100,000 are killed due to pharmaceutical errors, and a third 100,000 are killed due to hospital errors like secondary infections
All these people are "killed"? Or die on the operating table with wannabe millionaire relatives filing malpractice lawsuits...Might as well cash in...

Quote:
If you haven't read up on the horror stories about the number of avoidable deaths caused by the US medical "industry", you've really missed something important. It could kill you one day.
Will take my chances: If one goes to the hospital there is always a chance one is sick and may not come back, whether it be due a fatal condition or a rookie surgeon.

Not sure what this has to do with too many hand guns in the possesion of people that should not even be allowed to own a pair of knitting pins due to mental illness or low IQ.
To prevent the wrong people having guns, one could stop the making and selling of guns to the above people.

The NRA don't see it that way: The more guns out there, the better it is:
Let us all shot each other to protect ourself?

Again, in a nutshell: IF the idiots and criminals did not have guns, they could not shoot other people.

No?

And again, yes it may be too late to stop that, but why not give it a try?
Control them guns with a heavy hand.
No more gunshows with specials on permit waivers, no more promoting "You Need a Gun To Protect Your Family".

Just vote the gun-toting politicians out of the office.
Clean up this place, clean the guns of the streets.

(I know, a simple theory, not easy in reality)

I am also aware of the 40,000 deaths of the streets and highways of the US due to car accidents.
What a waste....Raise standards of driver-ed, pull people of the roads that should not be driving anything other than a wheel-barrow.

No...can't do..Everybody has a "right" to drive, and therefore a right to kill innocent motorist on the road.

Strange system, but in Rome, do what the Romans do, get a bigger gun and bigger car as the idiots have a right to be a danger to your life whether they are qualified or not.
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Old 14-04-2007, 22:30   #58
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As a peace loving Canadian....

I have the perfect solution for all this fuss among the ranks...& interestingly enough, it's the same one we have as our national policy...

All I have to do is make friends with some Americans who pack iron & buddy boat along with the gang !!

That way, if any bad guys show up...Captain Rambo aboard the S/V "Don't Mess With Our Friends" will come to the rescue.

Problem solved.

Now...on to the thread about which anchor is the best...
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Old 15-04-2007, 02:16   #59
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... I am also aware of the 40,000 deaths of the streets and highways of the US due to car accidents.
What a waste....Raise standards of driver-ed, pull people of the roads that should not be driving anything other than a wheel-barrow.

No...can't do..Everybody has a "right" to drive, and therefore a right to kill innocent motorist on the road...
Except, even in the least regulated industrial country in the world, you still need a licence to drive a registered & insured (liability) car.
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Old 15-04-2007, 07:10   #60
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Except, even in the least regulated industrial country in the world, you still need a licence to drive a registered & insured (liability) car.__________________
In thoery perhaps, but the license is being issued without any qualtiy control, or so it would seem based on the driving and the accidetns..

As for insurance..That is a joke here in South Florida:
People get the minimum insurance required, take the proof of insurance paper to the Dept. of Motor Vehicles to get their registration renewed, then goes back to the insurance man the next day, cancel their insurance and get most of their money back.
Other are paying for it by having to purchase insurance for un-insured motorist..

Aye, a bit of thread-creep going here perhaps, and I am the guilty part.

Quote:
indicates that of Norway (32.0%), Switzerland (27.2), Finland (23.2), Sweden (15.1) and Denmark (n/a), only Norway's 32% approaches the gun-owning household rate of 39% in the US. Granted, the table at that link is a bit dated, so who knows?
Hmm, that is interesting: High percentage of gun-ownership in Norway..
I was born and raised there but did not know anybody with a hand gun. A few had shotguns to hunt birds in the fall, but that was it.

On the other hand, every able bodied male have to serve the country and there is mandatory military draft.
Each cadet, or soldier is issued a weapon and it is yours to keep for the next year: Clean it and shoot with the thing. I had an AG-3, some kind of semi-automatic rifle to play with during my 15 months of service.

Wonder if those military issued guns are included in the above statisitics?
Same if Switzerland me think...
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