Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-04-2007, 23:00   #31
Registered User
 
swagman's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winter land based UK New Forest. Summer months away. Making the transition from sail to power this year - scary stuff.
Boat: Super Van Craft 1320 Power Yacht
Posts: 2,175
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to swagman
Have to say its a shame to see this all get so heated.

As had already been said, there was an earlier thread about guns and the simple suggestion made there was - as there are just so many places around the globe to sail to where piracy is not an issue, the easiest way to sail safe is to go to those safe places!

As to the argument that US citizens have constututional rights to carry guns......its nonsense to assume one can export those 'rights' simply because you want to.

I've no issue at all with a sane qualified and legally entitled person packing whatever armament they are entitled to. As long as they keep inside the law its a pretty good indicator to me they know how to handle the gun and are therefore unlikely to harm others.

What scares the pants off me are people who go for a few gun lessons - read sites like this and get encouraged to hide a gun away on board - and maybe start waving it around after misreading a situation.

But hey - lets not argue about this - or someone might get more heated and if they've got a gun - who knows what might happen!

Cheers

JOHN
__________________

__________________
Don't take life too seriously. No ones going to make it out alive......Go see our blog at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/yachtswagman/
swagman is offline  
Old 12-04-2007, 23:09   #32
Now on the Dark Side: Stink Potter.
 
CSY Man's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Boat: 2001 Albin 28TE.
Posts: 3,398
Images: 115
Quote:
America is a free nation, we are allowed to own guns, it's part of American heritage and it's one of things that makes our nation strong.
Or make the nation the top in the world by far for murders.

Too many guns floating around, and too many nut-cases having "rights" to carry guns...

Stop making them hand guns and stop selling them to anybody walking in the door.
Have the law enforcement people confiscate every gun from private homes and enforce strict control on the remaining guns. (police, military, etc)

No, there is no danger of the Goverment taking control of the citizen without the citizen being armed.
That was 200 years ago and now an outdated Constitution.
For those of you still arming yourself to be "free", look at the death toll from too many guns in private hands.
Talk to the widows and other victims.
Still don't get it..?


Then stop arming idiots like W.Bush and thousands of dead folks would be alive today.

THAT would make for a strong nation.
__________________

__________________
Life is sexually transmitted
www.odincharters.com
www.susanhanssen.com
CSY Man is offline  
Old 12-04-2007, 23:46   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Boat: none
Posts: 38
Cool

This is no fun. Let's all go sailing. Anyone willing to give me permission to come aboard?
__________________
5user5 is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 02:00   #34
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Although trouble on the water is exremely rare, it does happen. Vanaller was asking for information on carrying fire arms for protection, not a sparring opinion between OZ and the US. To each his own. I'm a Canuck living in the Peoples Republic of Hawaii. Do I pack a rod? Only 3 days out of 7...Guess which 3? On the water? I would never try to hide a weapon or not have a permit for one. There was a recent incident of a Ferro S/V from Washington State going aground in Mexico. The couple was held captive for days while there life was threatened and there ship totally stripped. It was their home and all they had. Maybe ask them if they felt they should of had protection. While I do not advocate carrying an assault rifle. A pump 12 ga. is probably the most effctive detourant you can have as well as a really cool flare gun.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 02:13   #35
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5

P.S...I would never carry a gun on board at the same time as with an ex-wife...
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 03:42   #36
Registered User
 
Inthewind's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Charlotte harbor, FL
Boat: Morgan OI 414
Posts: 251
By saying my gun was a secret, I meant that I would not flaunt the fact that I had a gun onboard to other cruisers or anyone stopping by as someone suggested that Americans show off thier guns. I didn't mean that I would hide it from officials in other countries and not declaire it if that is the law for that country. My gun is not worth me going to prison by getting caught with it because I didn't delare it. I am a law abiding citizen and realize my right to own a firearm is not the same in almost every country. I never said I can export my rights to another country.
__________________
Inthewind is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 08:27   #37
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
TaoJones's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montrose, Colorado
Posts: 9,850
My apologies, Inthewind . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inthewind
By saying my gun was a secret, I meant that I would not flaunt the fact that I had a gun onboard to other cruisers or anyone stopping by as someone suggested that Americans show off thier guns. I didn't mean that I would hide it from officials in other countries and not declaire it if that is the law for that country. My gun is not worth me going to prison by getting caught with it because I didn't delare it. I am a law abiding citizen and realize my right to own a firearm is not the same in almost every country. I never said I can export my rights to another country.
I had taken a portion of your previous post merely as a basis for raising the point that taking potentially fatal action with a gun carries with it some heavy consequences. I don't doubt for a moment that you are a law-abiding person who would never think of flaunting another nation's laws.

I was (hopefully) trying to get others who may be packing heat to think through the possible downside to using lethal force, justified or not.

It may be that you only cruise within US waters, sir, so most of what I wrote wouldn't apply to your situation at all.

Even then, however, the consequences of using a firearm that a person legally owns, and in a situation where it is clearly self-defense, can be severe, time-consuming, costly and not always certain. Consider the probable differences between using a gun to defend yourself in, say, Texas or Georgia, for example, or in Washington, DC or New York or New England.

I sincerely hope that all your cruising is nothing but pleasant and uneventful (in the security sense). That is my wish for everyone who cruises, whether they carry a gun or not.

TaoJones
__________________
"Your vision becomes clear only when you look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks within, awakens."
Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961)
TaoJones is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 12:26   #38
Registered User
 
Captain Mark's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Boat: 1993 Amel Super Maramu 53'
Posts: 89
Images: 1
I'm grabbing a beer, anyone else need one?
__________________
"Attitude: The difference between a problem and an adventure!"
Captain Mark is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 12:38   #39
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,029
"oh no, not another american having to carry guns."
Another foreigner who doesn't know American history and law?

Americans *were* required to *own* guns. At least, the males age 17-45 were. However, that changed about a hundred years ago and we are no longer required to own guns, although our government is still expressly not allowed to ban the ownership. Study the history of nations over the past 500 years, and you may understand this ban. Or not.

But we've never been required to CARRY guns, except while on active service. They get damned HEAVY when you have to carry them around all day. Dirty, too. Then you gotta dry 'em off when it rains, and the salt spray on the boat is murder on the finish.

I'm really glad we don't have to carry them all the time.
__________________
hellosailor is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 13:11   #40
Registered User
 
swagman's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winter land based UK New Forest. Summer months away. Making the transition from sail to power this year - scary stuff.
Boat: Super Van Craft 1320 Power Yacht
Posts: 2,175
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to swagman
Excuse me but is this correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
"oh no, not another american having to carry guns."
Another foreigner who doesn't know American history and law?

Americans *were* required to *own* guns. At least, the males age 17-45 were. However, that changed about a hundred years ago and we are no longer required to own guns, although our government is still expressly not allowed to ban the ownership. Study the history of nations over the past 500 years, and you may understand this ban. Or not.
I'm not 100% sure all Americans were required to carry guns in the past. Maybe what you meant to say was all white Americans?
Was it not the case if you were an indigenous American, or indeed if you were black, then guns were a no-no?
Cheers
JOHN
__________________
Don't take life too seriously. No ones going to make it out alive......Go see our blog at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/yachtswagman/
swagman is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 13:35   #41
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,029
Swagman, what question are you asking?
I said required to *own*, not *carry*. You're saying carry.
By "Americans" forgive me, I should have said "American citizens" but I did clarify which group of citizens. You can read up on the federal Musket Act of 1792 yourself if you're really interested. That stood as law until the Dick Militia Act(s), IIRC of 1906 and 1913, there are two of them, and some further modifications. You will find those mentioned--but not available--anywhere online. As of today the 1792 act is no longer in effect, and the federal militia laws are to be found in 10 USC. They no longer--as I said, no longer--require militiamen to supply their own weapons. The obligation for federal service is defined there, it generally applies to male citizens ages 17-45 with certain broad exemptions for postal workers and dockworkers and other vital services.
Folks think it is all obsolete and terribly quaint, but that's also the legal basis for our entire military "draft" system, so it isn't going away anytime in the near future.
Citizens of US states generally have a second totally separate burden of military service, most states also have laws requiring service for some of or all of the citizenry in a similar age range. That's the basis for our entire National Guard program, which consists of active duty State Militia who have been formally loaned to the President, who then seconds them to federal duty, for domestic militia use or for active duty military use.
It's an old and complex legal machination that accomplishes some things for express purposes--and no one wants to change it, because that would open up too many cans of worms and too many debates about how to get things done.

But again, AFAIK, Americans of any kind have never been required to CARRY guns, except in active service of some kind. If you've heard the term "MinuteMen" those were what is called a "select Militia". They were members of the state militia, not on active duty, but required to keep eerything including their weapon with them, so they could come up to active uty and respond "in a minute" by dropping everything (usually a plow team) and mustering, with arms and food, etc., ready to deploy.

AFAIK the only thing similar today are the Swiss, who still keep their weapons in homes, and still mine their mountain passes, and still keep artillery in barns--pretargeted on roads. They're not required to CARRY arms, either.

Batch of crazy folks who watched too much Nooze and been terrorized by things they've never seen or touched, or worse, those with an Agenda, are the only folks who seem to have a problem with guns. For most of us, a gun is like a hammer. It doesn't kill anyone by itself, and if you need one, it's a damned handy thing to have.
__________________
hellosailor is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 13:58   #42
Registered User
 
swagman's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Winter land based UK New Forest. Summer months away. Making the transition from sail to power this year - scary stuff.
Boat: Super Van Craft 1320 Power Yacht
Posts: 2,175
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to swagman
Hi HelloSailor,
My apologies - I meant 'own' and not 'carry'.
I'm out of this one.
Cheers
JOHN
__________________
Don't take life too seriously. No ones going to make it out alive......Go see our blog at http://www.sailblogs.com/member/yachtswagman/
swagman is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 16:55   #43
Registered User
 
beau's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 757
Images: 1
I apoligise if I have insulted Americans. I lived in your country for ten years and I did enjoy.

However, a couple of aspects that I experienced first hand .

For a while I lived in Fresno California with a population of 400,000 and 100 homicides a year.
A city in Australia with 400,000 people would have 3 or 4 homicides a year.
I had two of my friends killed in America by guns, I have never had any of my friends killed in Australia.

For a while I was upset when they banned guns in Australia, (I have been a farmer and hunter)
However when we read in the local paper that a McDonalds has been robbed last night, by a guy with sharpened screwdriver. (true) you just know banning guns WAS the right decision.

The statement "America is a free nation, we are allowed to own guns, it's part of American heritage and it's one of things that makes our nation strong."
Do you guys really believe this crap.
__________________
beau is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 17:42   #44
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
"I saw a dog in your country so all citizens of country "A" have dogs!..."Oh ya???...I saw chocolate cake in your country so all citizens in country "B" eat chocolate cake"! "Did too"..."Did not"..."Did too"...Waaaa!!!

I'm really suprised the administartors of this site forum are allowing this tennis game to continue. This debate has little to do with the original post. Lets meet 1/2 way in Bora Bora and buy one another a beer.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline  
Old 13-04-2007, 19:42   #45
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Whangaparaoa,NZ
Boat: 63 ft John Spencer Schooner
Posts: 956
For a while I lived in Fresno California with a population of 400,000 and 100 homicides a year.



Hmmmm I think NZ gets about 100 a year, pop over 4 million.
__________________

__________________
dana-tenacity is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Firearms Regulations by Country GordMay Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 97 31-08-2010 11:38
a transportable cruising yacht beau Forum Tech Support & Site Help 3 09-04-2007 21:12
Cruising Club of America Awards GordMay Cruising News & Events 1 21-01-2007 11:41
GUNS eskfreedom Health, Safety & Related Gear 63 20-06-2006 19:09
"Second Thoughts on the Ideal Cruising Boat" Stede General Sailing Forum 9 19-09-2004 22:13



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.