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Old 03-09-2009, 16:58   #46
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These gun threads are almost enough to put me off going cruising again, you lot are dangerous.
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Old 03-09-2009, 19:17   #47
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I am not the best sailor around nor profess to fully understand the dangers of being boarded. Having been a shooter and soldier most of my adult life I think I know a few things about firearms however.

I dont think carring a firearm is a great idea.
1/ Pirates tend to be organised and have watched you for some time
2/ Shooting someone is not like the movies. Unless you have a very powerful and cool personality you will find this difficult
3/ Getting in to an all out fire fight never ends well for anyone
4/ Upgrade the security on you boat making it far more difficult to get to you and if you must carry a firearm, do some extensive training with it.
When it counts it is amazing how many people forget the basics.

Good Luck and be Safe
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Old 03-09-2009, 19:55   #48
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These threads are asinine. While the poster has a legitimate question based on extremely limited knowledge the answer is this.
Leave the gun at home....it simply is a colossal waste of time and hassle. There is almost NOWHERE where a gun would be required and the places that it might be are VERY well-known and so just don't go there.
Secondly...remember the news tagline....if it bleeds it leads.....you read about the one or two boats that get robbed or someone killed and you don't here a single mention of the literally THOUSANDS of boats that are just fine. The odds of a situation requiring an armed response are WAY lower than having a wreck on the freeway yet we all drive every day and think nothing of it.
Keep these things in perspective. Don't read one or two reports and act as if that is the norm because it couldn't be further from the truth.
Also take with a grain of salt a lot of the pro-gun crowd. They are simply people who have never left the dock and have no firsthand experience of what it's REALLY like. The rest of the world is NOT like the US. People are NOT running around shooting each other. WE all know that but people in the US generally don't and they assume that it's the same or worse than it is there.
Cruising is about enjoying life....not living in fear....if you can't leave the fear behind then maybe look at staying home a while longer till you are ready.
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Old 03-09-2009, 20:11   #49
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this is so true.............its like shark attacks....you always her the worst not the gazillion folks that are not bitten ..............or lightning strikes...should i go on?
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Old 03-09-2009, 20:24   #50
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Asinine? I had to look that up.

1. Utterly useless or stupid
2. Latin ASININUS (Ass)

Very good...lol
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:40   #51
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Thanks for all the expert advice on packing a pistol. Obviously a touchy subject, based on all the sarcastic replies. I was hoping to get a little real life experience vs. "anyone who owns a gun is going to shoot children or themselves, or should stay home." When I discovered this website, I thought it might be very useful. Anyway, I am back and all turned out well. Now I know first hand what I had questions about.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:41   #52
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Originally Posted by David Mozingo View Post
Thanks for all the expert advice on packing a pistol. Obviously a touchy subject, based on all the sarcastic replies. I was hoping to get a little real life experience vs. "anyone who owns a gun is going to shoot children or themselves, or should stay home." When I discovered this website, I thought it might be very useful. Anyway, I am back and all turned out well. Now I know first hand what I had questions about.

David, I'm curious as to what first hand answers you found for your questions now that you're back.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:51   #53
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The OP asked a legitimate question and gets almost nothing but poorly though out sarcastic, unrealistic, or aggressively phrased nonsense, mostly based on idealistic notions and principles formed from little to no experience in situations that would require serious consideration of the subject. If you are sailing in mostly protected and well traveled waters, than you will not be in a situation that requires serious consideration. His question doesn't deserve the BS and sarcasm. Adults should have the ability to consider legitimate questions more subjectively and critically. In other words, grow up. There is no reason to call anyone "asinine", or to force your views of risk and survival on the world. Or your views of "who is ready to cruise" and who is not, based on such a strange criteria. Especially, when, while few and far in-between, there ARE real risks out there. How about, just because I have a strong opinion on a subject, I call your next legitimate question "asinine"? What a moronic response.

Upfront, I'm not a fan of guns. I wouldnt carry one unless I deemed the risk of not carrying one too high, but I know how to safely handle and shoot them.

Most cruisers would have little use for them, and the only time that there would be a reason that they ever be un-holstered is to show customs or to clean. This is because the chances of being accosted are little where they cruise. In more dangerous waters, and argument for not having a gun becomes much weaker, no matter what you assessment of the 'thoughts and strategies' of any particular pirate or criminal group are. You aren't a pirate or a criminal, and so you cant speak to their planning and relative ability to be successful in their dastardly plans regardless of their victim owning a firearm. And, even in 'safe' offshore waters, are murders and piracy entirely unheard of? If you don't have a gun, your playing the numbers only, and if your number were to come up, you would have no way to defend yourself against a murderous party. Admittedly, taking the trip the OP had stated, his chances of needing a gun would be low.

It is difficult to make a good argument for a responsible and sane adult not to keep one on board, if they so choose. He or she is in control of the firearm, and so where does your reasoning for him/her not carrying become relevant? Its a tool, just like a hammer. And it is a tool that, if a certain situation does arise, as it does for the unlucky few, will be the only tool that might stave off certain death. So it may be taken by customs, who cares? The carrier takes the risk of losing the value of the gun. Again, who cares?

The gun running comments are absolutely ridiculous. He is talking about a single firearm. Give me an example of a cruiser who has gotten in serious trouble,and has done jail time, for only a single firearm(not an automatic weapon or assault rifle) and this statement can be legitimized. Otherwise, its neurotic and alarmist. Ive never heard a story of a country doing anything but confiscating the firearm.

Some of the comments to the OPS question were OK, but the sarcasm, BS, and snarkiness stands out. But thats the way of the world, no? Ask a question that the world doesn't deem appropriate or offends there views and sensibilities, and dont expect adult answers. If you cant respond helpfully and sincerely, like an adult, then you shouldn't respond.

Alright, flame away...
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:05   #54
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Dave, a lot of people on here aren't from Texas. Personally, I plan to install a clay pigeon launcher on my deck.

Glad your trip went well.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:14   #55
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Two questions....
1, When do you decide someone is a pirate?
They are many fishing boats around the coast of south america who will approach you with no nav lights on at night when all they want is a beer or a cigarette, if you shot one of them you would be in some serious trouble with the law from whatever country they're from.

2, Can you outgun the pirates?
If you have a single pistol/hunting rifle it really doesn't matter how good a shot you are when 6 guys with AK47's are coming at you... it will not end well, maybe best to just give them what they want and report them to the police when you reach port, chances are you wont see your stuff again, but you wont be dead. If you let them take your gps money etc they will probably leave you unharmed, if you shoot at them they probably wont.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:29   #56
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When does your desire to carry a weapon offshore (and, no, once outside the U.S., it is no longer your automatic right) interfere with my desire to be safe and secure? If you mow down a fisherman because you couldn't tell the difference between coconuts and hand grenades, the natives are going to be a lot less friendly (and maybe a lot more dangerous) when I get there.

Hey, just a thought. Hope that didn't come off as snarky.
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:50   #57
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Where exactly would a cruiser expect to run into pirates, besides off the east coast of Africa and what not (the most recent Somali pirates we've all head about)?
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:24   #58
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...Give me an example of a cruiser who has gotten in serious trouble,and has done jail time, for only a single firearm (not an automatic weapon or assault rifle) and this statement can be legitimized. Otherwise, its neurotic and alarmist. Ive never heard a story of a country doing anything but confiscating the firearm...
A friend of mine here on Nevis was recently convicted and sentenced to two concurrent three year terms of hard labor in the local prison. His crimes were possession of an unregistered firearm, and possession of ammunition.

The previous owner of his home had left an antique .22 caliber rifle there, but it was missing it's bolt. My friend bought a bolt and a couple of boxes of .22 caliber ammo and had them FedEx'd to Nevis. His intent was to shoot the monkeys that were ravaging his garden and orchard.

When he declared the items to Customs, both he and his wife were arrested and jailed for a week, until they could arrange for bail. Charges against his wife were dropped, but he was tried, convicted, and sentenced. He is now out on bail pending appeal. All this is costing him many thousands of dollars, and he may yet end up spending three years in a dungeon on St. Kitts that's worse than anything you can imagine. A point of irony is that he has a valid government-issued permit and license to possess a .38 caliber handgun, which could be considered an offensive weapon. A .22 caliber bolt action rifle is a toy by comparison.

My friend isn't a cruiser, he's a full time resident here. But a cruiser would presumably be treated the same for violating gun laws. These countries take firearms very seriously. Think twice before you risk violating laws that you may or may not even be aware of.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:32   #59
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It all depends on your definiation of pirates. Small groups stealing from cruisiers can be found anywhere there appears to be a large difference betwen the haves,the have-nots, and the never-wills.

Those with RPG's attacking tankers and freighters and demanding ransom can be found off the coast of Somali.

Please remember that we are guests in someone else's country. Guess who goes to jail after a shootout with a local?
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:59   #60
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When does your desire to carry a weapon offshore (and, no, once outside the U.S., it is no longer your automatic right) interfere with my desire to be safe and secure?
Not to wax too philosophical, or be too nitpicky......but I will anyway.

Rights are not derived from governmental decree. They are inherent in us by nature of being human beings. Just because a government chooses to try to suppress your rights does NOT mean you do not have them. Hence the term unalienable in our Declaration of Independence. People have an inherent right to self defense. Therefore, it stands to reason that they have an inherent right to the tools that will enable their self defense, whatever some bureaucrat or other tyrant may say.

That said, thinking that you'll be able to use a gun to defend yourself on the high seas is probably foolhardy. It's hard enough to hit a moving target on solid ground, let alone on a pitching deck while ducking to try to avoid being shot yourself. I'm thinking you can plan on not being able to repel boarders before they get to your boat. That means you'll be tussling with them onboard, in close quarters (especially if you retreat belowdecks and they follow you down). Now anyone who knows what they're doing will tell you that in close quarters, a knife is more dangerous than a gun (assuming you have a clue how to handle a knife). So if you feel that you've no choice but to fight back, a good knife in trained hands is the better way to go.

That said, pirates have historically stuck to a fairly predictable code: if their target vessel surrendered without struggle, they took their booty and left the crew unharmed. But if the target vessel resisted, the crew was killed brutally. It only took a couple of "examples" before the word got around that surrender was the better policy. Really, pirates want it that way. They, for the most part, aren't in it for bloodthirsty kicks. They're in it for the money. Actual firefights are much more costly for them (there's the possibility that they'll be killed and/or the "take" damaged or destroyed); much better to not shoot at all. Therefore it behooves them to let the target vessel's crew go unharmed once they have what they want, because if the crew believes they'll be harmed or killed regardless, the odds of actual fighting is much higher, and that's counter-productive from the pirates' perspective. The modern Somali pirates are continuing this trend. Even when they take captives for ransom, the captives are treated well (as well as can be expected anyway) until released.

To sum up:

Train yourself in self defense and close combat (I'm a fan/student of Shaolin Kempo Karate, Wushu, and Tai Chi myself). Get a knife and keep it sharp. But don't try to use it unless you've given the bad guys what they want and it appears that they're going to do harm anyway. Afterall, every now and then there are people who will not be mollified just by getting what they want.


Cheers,
Alexei
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