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Old 21-02-2013, 06:14   #16
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Re: Boating safety list

Posted by MarkJ with replies in bold...

Quote:
If I say something like 'dont be to over-zealous about it all' you will all have a heart attack and die... which would be a safety issue in itself.
So I wont say 'dont be to over-zealous about it all'.
I commute from base to base in Afghanistan in aging planes and helos for a living. I live with rocket attacks, VBIED's, sniper threats, and insider threats. I'll try not to have a heart attack over your philosophy

I dont have jacklines.
I dont use a harness even at night unless conditions call for it, though I usually always have a harness on when I go forward, always when I work forward.
I very very rarely wear an inflating PDF.
Common sense and experience are important

Things like "Check that pumps will stay operational even with DC main breaker off." I have never heard of before and sounds really weird, something I would never have, but then I live aboard.

"Improper Wiring Far too many boats are wired so that shutting off the main power, either the main breaker, or the battery switches, shuts off the bilge pumps. Its truly amazing how many builders of expensive yachts make this amateur mistake. That means that if you shut off the power when you leave the boat (even though you're left pump switches on) you inadvertently turned off your pumps. Testing for this is simple: just shut off the main DC breaker and turn the battery switches to OFF, then lift the float switch and see if the pump works. If not then its wired wrong". How to Prevent Your Boat from Sinking: Boats and Yachts Maintenance and Troubleshooting :


"Know how to anchor for the bottom conditions," How?????????? How do you know whats at the bottom unless you have dived on the location? And thats possible about 10% of the time. The reality is you roll up into some bay and chuck the anchor overboard not knowing what the bottom consists or, nor what junk there is there. To do otherwise will mean you at a marina 365 days a year (Unless you are in the Bahamas! Where the water is so shallow and clear you can see every grain of sand)
I meant trying to make sure that the anchor is set properly by backing down under power and perhaps using resources like Active Captain or cruiser nets to find out what the anchoring conditions are like.


Changing all the rigging, all the thru hulls etc just because you buy a boat is a bit expensive and unwarranted.
Agreed, but I can easily learn to inspect them

If the split pin on the steering breaks why couldnt it have been any other on the boat? Its like carrying spares that you will never need and can buy at any port anyway. Just a waste of money.

More to the point is to sail and live on your boat with your eyes open at all times... a bit like finding something on your body... you didnt look for it, but somehow you found it. The boat is the same, wherever you are on your boat keep your eyes open and looking around, you may spot a problem. Keep the general maintenance up.
Agreed

With deck work I doubt people maximise their learning when tussled up like a roasting turkey. Use your common sense to work out if you need a harness on. In most weather in the cockpit you certainly don't need it.
Having been forced to wear harnesses during heavy construction work even when unnecessary, I agree with this also


Photo below: Its safe to be on deck without a harness! Look at the sea conditions; know your physical abilities; get to know your boat, deck, hand-holds. Note: She is holding on.
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Old 21-02-2013, 06:47   #17
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Re: Boating safety list

! ACCESS !

Many boats sink not because they get holed but because the crew cannot locate and plug the hole in time!

! INJURIES !

Crew hit and incapacitated in crash gybes, crew falling down the unsecured companionway. All of which can be avoided.

! REGULAR AND THOROUGH EQUIPMENT CHECKS !

No way to visit the mast top before every major passage? Chain-plates never pulled out & checked? I am sorry, wrong number.

IMHO safety is all about preparation, preparedness and checking every system and every item twice. Then go and sail worry-less. And when something crops up, then you just deal with it and that's that.

Very good thread, most interesting facts and opinions. THX

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Old 21-02-2013, 07:27   #18
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pirate Re: Boating safety list

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
! ACCESS !

Many boats sink not because they get holed but because the crew cannot locate and plug the hole in time!
So think on how to stretch that time...
1 is to keep your storm jib in a easy access place.. if you get holed the 1st thing (if you have crew) is head into wind and drop all sail while one goes below and grabs the sail which is taken to the bow and with the foot on the side of the hole, the head opposite walk it back till it covers the hole... won't stop things but it'll win you time to pump out the likely knee deep water below and do the fix..
Solo...? I have gone on an opposite tack which lifted the hole above water and allowed me to belly down lean over and stuff a towel in the hole to stop wave slop till I got to a drying anchorage where I patched her up. Mind it was decent weather and light sea's..

! INJURIES !

Crew hit and incapacitated in crash gybes, crew falling down the unsecured companionway. All of which can be avoided.

You'd be surprised how easy it is... drop the hook, missus goes below to brew a coffee, hubby slides the hatchcover closed then climbs on the cabin top to stow the main... missus comes back up with coffee into the cockpit hubby steps back to attach another bungee and disappears into the boat.. Sorry mate it looked so funny..

! REGULAR AND THOROUGH EQUIPMENT CHECKS !
No reason you should have faulty ground tackle... takes no time at all to cast an eye over it before you drop it.. even better after you've hauled it back up.. if your a live aboard or on a long trip make up a list similar to the mileage list for cars.. weekly jobs.. monthly.. annual... takes less than an hour a day...
Well... not allways..

No way to visit the mast top before every major passage? Chain-plates never pulled out & checked? I am sorry, wrong number.

IMHO safety is all about preparation, preparedness and checking every system and every item twice. Then go and sail worry-less. And when something crops up, then you just deal with it and that's that.

Very good thread, most interesting facts and opinions. THX

b.
Threads like this are great.. always something to be learnt that can be adapted to ones needs..
Another thing to remember.. just because some dickhead () says he does not use harness's, lifejackets etc... does not mean YOU don't need them..
A few weeks a year sailing does not = a life living and working on boats and rank stupidity..
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Old 21-02-2013, 08:23   #19
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Re: Boating safety list

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDog View Post
"Improper Wiring Far too many boats are wired so that shutting off the main power, either the main breaker, or the battery switches, shuts off the bilge pumps. Its truly amazing how many builders of expensive yachts make this amateur mistake. That means that if you shut off the power when you leave the boat (even though you're left pump switches on) you inadvertently turned off your pumps. Testing for this is simple: just shut off the main DC breaker and turn the battery switches to OFF, then lift the float switch and see if the pump works. If not then its wired wrong". How to Prevent Your Boat from Sinking: Boats and Yachts Maintenance and Troubleshooting :

Hmmmmm. I'd like a few of the forum experts to give their opinion on that one.

All builders AFAIK put bilge pumps thru the main breaker. I never turn mine off, but for weekend sailors?
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Old 21-02-2013, 09:58   #20
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Re: Boating safety list

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDog
"Improper Wiring Far too many boats are wired so that shutting off the main power, either the main breaker, or the battery switches, shuts off the bilge pumps. Its truly amazing how many builders of expensive yachts make this amateur mistake. That means that if you shut off the power when you leave the boat (even though you're left pump switches on) you inadvertently turned off your pumps. Testing for this is simple: just shut off the main DC breaker and turn the battery switches to OFF, then lift the float switch and see if the pump works. If not then its wired wrong".
Most manufacturers design battery disconnect switches as a safety device, ie its a way of disconnecting everything. WIth Modern GRP boats, there is no ingress of water, my bilge pumps never came on in three years ( I have a counter). Hence its quite a reasonable assumption

Futhermore if you dont like that, just leave you battery system powered up. I mean your DC system is safe or it isnt, switch individual systems as necessary. Too many treat electrical systems like my mothers does and pulls the plug on the TV every night!!!.

The trouble with these prescriptive lists, is that they can be substituted for common sense. What you need to build is an appreciation for what can cause trouble and what doesnt. That may change from hour to hour, day to day.

I mean take fires, most on board extinguishers are incapable of dealing with anything above a galley frying pan fire. equally many people have copious units and have never sought training on using them or more importantly when to just get out.

We live in a world where people substitute "process" and "things" for common sense or applying experience

Take your list, its either aspirational or focused on wrong areas

"dont fall off the boat", great but what do you recognise as the issues and how to prevent them. Better advice would be to set down when and where wearing harnesses should be used, or to develop "standing orders" as to how the crew traverse the deck.

Falling of the boat isnt really the issue, humans are waterproof, drowning is the issue.


then look at the focus on "through-hulls" , most people have no idea how to recognise problems, hence these issues are not really safety issues, in fact the vast majority of sailors have no issues with sea-cocks anyway, its only internet sailors that do.

DC wiring, are you a professional, how do you determine "good practice" again for most people this is like looking into a hay stack.

Electric Bilge pumps are not a safety device, they will never save your boat from sinking, they are there to remove small volumes of weepage or stuff that comes down the companion way cause you didnt put in the washboards soon enough


As to the person that recommended putting in the rigging yourself, what nonsense, about 1 in1000 sailors have the knowledge, the correct tools and the wherewithall to do this.

Safety is primarily an attitude of mind.

* Know you crew, instruct them in safe behaviour consistent with their abilities, have standing orders for deck work in teh dark and heavy weather limit unneccessary deck excursions.

(most harnesses and lifelines will never keep you on deck , beware of "straw man" safety

Most fires that are beyond simple extinguishers ability will consume the boat, I once saw a galley fire in Corsica, consume the boat to the waterline in the time in took to drink my coffee.

The key thing is to minimise sources of ignition and to be careful around gas.

Its about thinking about your boat in your circumstances with your crew. Ive been on unsafe boats loaded with safety gear and vice versa

happy sailing

PS to the serving Afgan soliders, (a) You are a trained professional, (b) you volunteered and (c) sailing is a safe hobby. IN your case huge amounts of effort goes in to trying to keep you alive,( even if it doesnt seem like that) and in order to be effective you have to expose yourself to deadly situations, theres no comparison with sailing

Dave
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Old 21-02-2013, 11:24   #21
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Re: Boating safety list

Quote:
Most manufacturers design battery disconnect switches as a safety device, ie its a way of disconnecting everything. WIth Modern GRP boats, there is no ingress of water, my bilge pumps never came on in three years ( I have a counter). Hence its quite a reasonable assumption

Futhermore if you dont like that, just leave you battery system powered up. I mean your DC system is safe or it isnt, switch individual systems as necessary. Too many treat electrical systems like my mothers does and pulls the plug on the TV every night!!!.

The trouble with these prescriptive lists, is that they can be substituted for common sense. What you need to build is an appreciation for what can cause trouble and what doesnt. That may change from hour to hour, day to day.

I mean take fires, most on board extinguishers are incapable of dealing with anything above a galley frying pan fire. equally many people have copious units and have never sought training on using them or more importantly when to just get out.

We live in a world where people substitute "process" and "things" for common sense or applying experience

Take your list, its either aspirational or focused on wrong areas

"dont fall off the boat", great but what do you recognise as the issues and how to prevent them. Better advice would be to set down when and where wearing harnesses should be used, or to develop "standing orders" as to how the crew traverse the deck.

Falling of the boat isnt really the issue, humans are waterproof, drowning is the issue.


then look at the focus on "through-hulls" , most people have no idea how to recognise problems, hence these issues are not really safety issues, in fact the vast majority of sailors have no issues with sea-cocks anyway, its only internet sailors that do.
Boatus found that 50% of boats that sink at the dock do so because of underwater fittings. Clearly they are an issue and a safety issue if you are at sea and one lets go!

DC wiring, are you a professional, how do you determine "good practice" again for most people this is like looking into a hay stack.
Yes i am a professional.

Electric Bilge pumps are not a safety device, they will never save your boat from sinking, they are there to remove small volumes of weepage or stuff that comes down the companion way cause you didnt put in the washboards soon enough

A national study of pleasure
boats found that more vessels sink
at the dock than at sea, and a major cause
of both types of sinkings is improper sizing,
installation, and maintenance of
bilge pumps. An owner will pay $100,000
for a boat but wonít pay one-half of 1% of
that amount for a bilge pump system to keep
it afloat.
http://seagrant.uaf.edu/bookstore/boatkeeper/bilge-pumps.pdf


As to the person that recommended putting in the rigging yourself, what nonsense, about 1 in1000 sailors have the knowledge, the correct tools and the wherewithall to do this.

Safety is primarily an attitude of mind.

* Know you crew, instruct them in safe behaviour consistent with their abilities, have standing orders for deck work in teh dark and heavy weather limit unneccessary deck excursions.

(most harnesses and lifelines will never keep you on deck , beware of "straw man" safety

Most fires that are beyond simple extinguishers ability will consume the boat, I once saw a galley fire in Corsica, consume the boat to the waterline in the time in took to drink my coffee.

The key thing is to minimise sources of ignition and to be careful around gas.

Its about thinking about your boat in your circumstances with your crew. Ive been on unsafe boats loaded with safety gear and vice versa

happy sailing

PS to the serving Afgan soliders, (a) You are a trained professional, (b) you volunteered and (c) sailing is a safe hobby. IN your case huge amounts of effort goes in to trying to keep you alive,( even if it doesnt seem like that) and in order to be effective you have to expose yourself to deadly situations, theres no comparison with sailing

I wrote this list to help consolidate in my mind the ideas I have been reading about as I prepare to work on my boat and take it to sea. It was partly a reaction to people online telling me that it could take years to get the boat ready to launch. My reading suggests that while proper maintenance is important, training and mental preparation is just as important. I like to think that I have common sense and have a background that will help me in this endeavor.

Training: Served 5 year industrial electrical apprenticeship, currently a licensed electrician. Studied electronics completing a one year electronics program. Trained in cold weather survival, Completed a week long Ocean Search and Rescue course (AMSEA - Cold Water Safety & Survival Workshops) served as a member of an Antarctic research station ocean search and rescue team, Fire brigade member for four Antarctic seasons, graduated from two fire academies. multiple training courses in first aid. Trauma team training, I could go on and on...

Based on my list of training and experience which is by no means complete, I don't believe that I am someone who substitutes "process" and "things" for common sense and experience as you seem to suggest. I am simply reading up and preparing for an upcoming experience so that it does not become a negative one for me or my family. I am new to sailing and keelboats and I have much to learn. It only makes sense to start that learning now in my free time. In the last week or two for instance, I have read some very interesting and educational books to help me prepare for this such as "Following Seas" by Beth Leonard, Don Casey's "Sailboat Maintenance Manual" and Calders "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual". I am also reading "Boat Mechanical Systems Handbook, how to design install and recognize proper systems" by Dave Gerr.
There is no substitute for experience but that doesn't mean that we can't learn from others ahead of time. There is also no substitute for proper planning and the more dangerous the endeavor, the more planning you should do. I have worked in some of the most dangerous environments in the world, from minus 109 degrees F at the Pole in winter to nuclear plants, chip plants with hydrofluoric acid, 96% sulfuric acid, etc. The key to safety is planning and preparation. It's knowing what to do when the unexpected happens, so your training takes over.
It also requires have a boat that has been built and maintained safely. in my particular case the boat is reasonably new for a project boat so my main concerns are whether it and it's systems were built properly and whether they have deteriorated while stored long term.

btw I am not a soldier. I am a civilian subject matter expert for the system on this (though I don't work on the Phalanx itself, but on the sense and warn function)
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Old 21-02-2013, 11:55   #22
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Re: Boating safety list

How many also have a fire blanket aboard? And have practised using one on fires? Might come in handy for fibreglass repairs in a pinch too....dual use!
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Old 21-02-2013, 12:05   #23
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Re: Boating safety list

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDog View Post
people online telling me that it could take years to get the boat ready to launch.

You're wrong about that! If you listen to internet forum people you will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, launch.

And launching aint even cruising! Then ya gotta go somewhere!



"Boatus found that 50% of boats that sink at the dock do so because of underwater fittings."

Thats fine. You dont have to worry about that. You wont be at a dock, you'll be cruising

If you take a vacation to Colarado to go skiing and after a week you dont like it, hwta do you do? You go home.
Crisng is a vacation, a holiday, a sojourn etc. Its as crazy to waste years preparing as it is to take years to prepare for a 2 week holiday to Colarado.

Cut your time frames and get out and live life
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Old 21-02-2013, 12:37   #24
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Re: Boating safety list

MarkJ, I agree completely! However, I still have to finish my deployment in Afghanistan so I am trying to learn while I am here...As far as the boat goes, I will hire help as needed to expedite the process but I am learning a lot by reading. I don't look on cruising as a lifetime thing and I will get out there and have fun asap I am also highly experienced at mayhem and Fun
Hey I'm a guy that decided one day (well one night actually at the South Pole) to move to Costa Rica. I called my wife and asked her if she wanted to move there and she said "sure, I've always wanted to live in Costa Rica". So we did. Neither of us had ever been to the country...no regrets
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Old 21-02-2013, 12:44   #25
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Re: Boating safety list

Micah, I haven't really used fire blankets so I cant really say if that would be a good addition but I have used handheld fire extinguishers often. A properly sized and rated one can put out a fire if you use it properly and react quickly (smoke detectors anyone?).
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Old 21-02-2013, 12:55   #26
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Re: Boating safety list

The good thing about fire blankets is that they don't leave a residue, and can also be used to put out clothing fires, or as a shield for you to get close to a fire to fight it or simply flee past it.

Spraying a burning person with bicarb or monoammoniumphosphate (big word, eh?) is not polite, and that powder will work wonders towards replacing all your electrics. Further, a high pressure blast on a liquid fire can sometimes make the problem worse by spreading it...such as a fat fire. A lid for every pot, and flour works on burning fat too, but the blankie is cheap and multi use. Multiple uses as in versatile, not meaning it is good to re-use once it has been used to fight a fire....better to ditch it and get another then. My favourite form of fibreglass....the least itchy kind.
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Old 21-02-2013, 13:09   #27
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Re: Boating safety list

If anyone is on fire, I'm just going to toss them overboard...
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Old 21-02-2013, 13:34   #28
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Re: Boating safety list

Getting a merrily blazing person up the companionway could be difficult yet painful, and recovering a moulting person in shock from the soothing salty sharky water, also. Smothering them (the flames, the flames, I mean) below deck is better, and the blankie is good for that since it won't melt. C'mon, they're dirt cheap, and I don't even get a commission on them anymore.
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Old 21-02-2013, 14:28   #29
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Re: Boating safety list

A good toolkit and good basic spares can save a lot of trouble, spare fuel filters are a must- several.

Probably the most common thing to disable the engine is bad/dirty fuel. spare shackles, another common thing to go/drop/fail, a spare line at least the length of your longest halyard.

The above will solve a very high proportion of common failures.

Jacklines,tethers,lifejackets,liferaft,epirb etc

And a reasonable amount of common sense and know how will go a very long way!
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Old 21-02-2013, 14:53   #30
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Re: Boating safety list

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MarkJ, I agree completely! However, I still have to finish my deployment in Afghanistan so I am trying to learn while I am here...
When it comes time to buy a boat there is always the option to buy one in a cruising area.... like the Caribbean. At least then when you are doing work on it you are already on the way
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