Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-03-2018, 08:31   #1
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,569
Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Sure, as we get older we learn from our mistakes, we read, and we understand what we are doing better. But we also become complacent, more certain that we can handle a blow and avoid trouble.

Forget complete beginners. Most will never become serious sailors and it could skew the statistics. We know beginning drivers are poor. They become steadily better with age, until some tipping point is reached. But driving is different from sports.

If I think about rock climbers, I know beginners have accidents. But I know VERY experienced climbers that have had stupid accidents resulting from complacency. There is also a tendency to push more and more difficult climbs as their skills grow. That is what keeps it alive. Their skills are greater, but so is the difficulty and hence risk.

For many sailors there must be a similar curve. I am far more likely to singlehand in a blow. After all, I've got it down. There are very few surprises anymore. Even in light to moderate weather, perhaps I am more casual on deck. Sure enough, we hear of sailors of all ages being lost.

I'm sure if we adopt a low-risk style, safety increases. We make fewer mistakes and avoid hazardous conditions. Many older sailors do this. But if we do not, if we still seek adventure, as we did in our youth, does safety increase with age, stay level, or even decline as a result of arrogance?

Can you prove it?
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2018, 08:39   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,585
Images: 2
pirate Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Nothing to prove.. never has been..
__________________

It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2018, 16:44   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Generally said about soldiers, pilots, divers and mushroom hunters
But it's also true in this case:

There are old sailors and there are bold sailors. There are no old, bold sailors.
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2018, 17:10   #4
registered user
 
HankOnthewater's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: back in West Australia
Boat: plastic production boat, suitable for deep blue water ;)
Posts: 1,090
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

StuM beat me to it, I was planning to mention old/bold sailors......

I think it is near impossible to prove /disprove the point, that older sailors are safer.
I can think of the following, in no particular order:
- an older sailor might not be able to save him/herself/the boat, not because of lack experience, but lack of strength/stamina, ie climbing back in the boat/dinghy
- older sailors (ie me) take fewer risks
- really old sailors ( eh... more like those whose ability to clear thinking has been reduced) will be prone to more accidents
- older sailors might not be able to act quickly anymore, due to various ailments, joint replacements, reduced vision, reduced hearing etc. ie to fix a stuck furler on the foredeck could be fixed by an agile person in 2 minutes, while an old man may need 15
- older persons suffer more from extreme heat, cold, tiredness, as they have physically less reserves

Hehehe, the best combination is an old, wise experienced skipper with one or two agile younger crew!
BTW, I take out regularly an old friend in his own boat, in his time a very experienced skipper, who sailed singlehanded across the North Sea back and forth from England to Holland in WWII, and later became a competent skipper of his racing yacht in Australia. But right now, is barely able to turn a winch, but he still steers his boat!

Hmmm, he lost once his boat on the coast of WA, but he was still agile and young then! Figure that.
__________________
Wishing you all sunny skies above, clear water below, gentle winds behind and a safe port ahead,
and when coming this way check https://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Albany,_Australia
HankOnthewater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2018, 17:26   #5
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,143
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

This would be another interesting query to test if you could get a hold of relevant data. Insurance data perhaps? The USCG accident data includes “Operator Experience” levels, but it doesn’t provide this as a rate, so not very meaningful.

I think there’s a general principle that indicates that the most dangerous folks are those in the mid-stages of competency. In the early phases everyone is cautious and conservative, so avoids problems. At the ‘mastery’ level you have a deep understand of the dangers and your limits, so behave accordingly. It’s that mid-level, when you know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to know your limits, where disaster strikes.

This was a well known effect in the mining field (I covered health & safety issues as a journalist).

USCG data:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Operator experiences.jpg
Views:	404
Size:	32.6 KB
ID:	165610  
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2018, 22:45   #6
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,030
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
But we also become complacent, more certain that we can handle a blow and avoid trouble.
5. Strongly disagree




conachair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 00:22   #7
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,154
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Ya know, thinwater, I'm kinda surprised that you, as someone who makes their living doing ostensibly objective tests of products and practices should propose a question that is entirely subjective and without definitive criteria. "Safety" has no specific definition, no parameters and no scale. How in the hell can you propose to measure such an amorphous quality at all,let alone with age and experience as a controlling parameter?

From anyone else I'd think this was a troll...

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 00:33   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Back in Montt.
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 8,180
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankOnthewater View Post
StuM beat me to it, I was planning to mention old/bold sailors......
- older sailors might not be able to act quickly anymore, due to various ailments, joint replacements, reduced vision, reduced hearing etc. ie to fix a stuck furler on the foredeck could be fixed by an agile person in 2 minutes, while an old man may need 15
.........
The old sailor would -hopefully- realise there was nothing wrong with the furler but that someone had wrapped the spinnaker halyard into the genoa...

Nor would he have let the furling line run free and cause a jam on the furler drum.

With age comes wisdom... or so they say.... dunno how old you have to be before that starts to happen....
__________________
A little bit about Chile can be found here https://www.docdroid.net/bO63FbL/202...anchorages-pdf
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 03:47   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Wherever we are
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40 cataran
Posts: 97
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Some sailors are inherently safer than others. Some are so timid as to be poor sailors and some, as we all know, are so reckless as to be a hazard to all afloat. One would expect experience to to temper the extremes and shift most to a state of greater care..
sv Grateful is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 04:00   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: B24
Posts: 785
Images: 62
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I think there’s a general principle that indicates that the most dangerous folks are those in the mid-stages of competency. In the early phases everyone is cautious and conservative, so avoids problems. At the ‘mastery’ level you have a deep understand of the dangers and your limits, so behave accordingly. It’s that mid-level, when you know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to know your limits, where disaster strikes.
I'd have a dickens of a time proving it with hard data, but that has been my impression as well... the 100-500 hour pilot, the 1000-10,000 or so mile biker, the skipper who knows all the ropes, but not yet how they can bite... and personally, that has been my experience... once I passed 65 (now 70), I find that I am almost timid in the way I attack these recreations -- as they say in aviation, far better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground (I'm sure there is a sailing equivalent -- but it takes a while to get to the point where you realize it is okay to stay tied to the dock/anchor today...).
__________________
Larry
dcstrng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 04:14   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Fiji Airways/ Lake Ontario
Boat: Legend 37.5, 1968 Alcort Sunfish, Avon 310
Posts: 2,749
Images: 11
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Having owned the same boat for 24 years, the variable is me. And I can tell you that the anchor is now heavier and the deck moves around more, sometimes making me inclined to grasp stays and such to keep steady on deck.

I'd like to think that aging has improved my experience, but I can assure you that it's forced me to behave differently.

But has it made me safer? I dunno. Four years ago when an elderly couple broadcast a mayday and it was too rough for USCG to respond, my buddy and I went out, deposited me on their boat, and I saved the boat. Not safe. Some would argue stupid. But I did wear a life jacket, something I'd have not done in my younger years!
Tetepare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 04:21   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,585
Images: 2
pirate Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare View Post
Having owned the same boat for 24 years, the variable is me. And I can tell you that the anchor is now heavier and the deck moves around more, sometimes making me inclined to grasp stays and such to keep steady on deck.

I'd like to think that aging has improved my experience, but I can assure you that it's forced me to behave differently.

But has it made me safer? I dunno. Four years ago when an elderly couple broadcast a mayday and it was too rough for USCG to respond, my buddy and I went out, deposited me on their boat, and I saved the boat. Not safe. Some would argue stupid. But I did wear a life jacket, something I'd have not done in my younger years!
For all your sober posts.. you sound as loopy as me..
__________________

It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 04:50   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 947
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Lots of aviation related comments so here’s another
Years ago in my youth I was a top rated hang-glider pilot.
Dangerous activity for sure BUT what made it safe was that I went
flying every weekend for years. It became dangerous and why I stopped
flying, was when other things like my family and business started to
take time away. Every week became every other week, then once a month.
That’s when stupid mistakes started to happen, It wasn’t age or experience,
It Was Lack Of Practice. IMHO the experienced sailer who goes out once
a month is just as likely to get into trouble as those with much less experience.
Cheers
Neil
Time2Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 06:19   #14
Registered User
 
gamayun's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Oakland, CA
Boat: Freedom 38
Posts: 2,503
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Time2Go View Post
Lots of aviation related comments so here’s another
Years ago in my youth I was a top rated hang-glider pilot.
Dangerous activity for sure BUT what made it safe was that I went
flying every weekend for years. It became dangerous and why I stopped
flying, was when other things like my family and business started to
take time away. Every week became every other week, then once a month.
That’s when stupid mistakes started to happen, It wasn’t age or experience,
It Was Lack Of Practice. IMHO the experienced sailer who goes out once
a month is just as likely to get into trouble as those with much less experience.
Cheers
Neil
Exactly. I've met lots of divers and sailors who tell me how long they've been doing these activities. There are quite a few I wouldn't buddy up with or sail with because they lack competence regardless of their "years of experience."
gamayun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 06:41   #15
Registered User
 
s/v Moondancer's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Boat: Boatless
Posts: 1,578
Re: Are More Expereinced Sailors Actually Safer? Prove It.

An unanswerable question becaue we have no data.

However, I know personally, (drunk beer with them) the owners of three boats that have been lost in the Pacific in the last three years. All the owners were relatively inexperienced even though they we crossing the Pacific.
__________________
Phil

"Remember, experience only means that you screw-up less often."
s/v Moondancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Prove or disprove Volvo DRS Engines and Propulsion Systems 5 16-09-2016 20:36
Questions... actually more of a Survey kaoskorruption Meets & Greets 1 05-07-2008 22:39
Chartering a bare boat... how do I prove I'm worthy? austi012 General Sailing Forum 15 07-08-2005 17:18

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.