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Old 13-11-2007, 16:14   #31
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For an explaination and dimensions, try: Chain Grading
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Old 13-11-2007, 17:54   #32
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Originally Posted by GMac View Post
You sure it's not a Triple B chain. That will be stamped 3B.
That could looks like 38.

BBB is a Grade 30 and has differing measurements than a G40.

I think that you are correct GMac. On that note do I need to replace this with BBB chain?
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Old 13-11-2007, 21:55   #33
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Originally Posted by S/V Elusive View Post
For an explaination and dimensions, try: Chain Grading
NOTE: That page, while a goodie, is a bit US specific with some bits. The G43 is nearly a US thing only. The rest are common worldwide.

Charlie - All depends on what you want and your gypsy fits.

If you have a BBB sized gypsy the new chain should be good to go. Assuming it is a BBB.

If you ordered and paid for G4 , I'd be kicking butt to get the price difference back. G4 should cost more then BBB.

If you want a G4 and your gypsy will take it, you will need to change the chain.

Apart from the physical size difference the G4 is roughly 25% stronger than the BBB.

As long as the chain you have matches the gypsy you have you're good to go otherwise. A BBB sized gypsy is unlikely to take a G4. Obviously the opposite applies as well.
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Old 14-11-2007, 12:45   #34
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GMac - I didn't realize there was such a difference (at least in chain). Live and learn, thank you! It should be noted, however, that Charlie is in California USA.
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Old 14-11-2007, 16:57   #35
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I purchased 300' of 5/16 HT for my Passport 45 (20 tons). I never stayed in marinas on either of my circumnavigations. I always anchored out in any and all conditions. I need to have something that I new I could rely on.

I found that I had to lay down a lot of chain to keep from dragging in certain situations with the HT chain. It was just too light weight.

When I was in Australia, I bought a new gypsy for my windlass and 300' of 3/8" BBB chain. I was very impressed with the holding power that I got from that additional weight. I would think twice about splicing any chain. Unless you actually did go to 1/2" chain (as mentioned in your 1st post). There are good links available for 1/2" commercial chain. However, that may be a bit of overkill.

S/S chain and anchors are meant for looks only. They are not made to be used. They are designed for people that like to look good in the marina and don't want anyone to see a little rust on their gear. S/S has a very low breaking point and it bends very easily.

I also sold my Bruce anchor. I found it to be useless in anything but deep sand and not that good there. I found the Delta to hold better in most conditions ( wouldn't even consider a CQR). I found the best holding anchors to be my 29# Fortress anchor. I would only use them in pairs (off the bow).
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Old 14-11-2007, 19:35   #36
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Originally Posted by Kanani View Post
I found that I had to lay down a lot of chain to keep from dragging in certain situations with the HT chain. It was just too light weight.
That speaks more to the anchor than the chain, i.e. that it's tolerance isn't very high. The only factor that matters in this sense is that angle on the anchor. Let out enough scope and the weight of the chain is largely unimportant.

Chain, Rope, and Catenary - Anchor Systems For Small Boats

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Originally Posted by Kanani View Post
S/S chain and anchors are meant for looks only. They are not made to be used. They are designed for people that like to look good in the marina and don't want anyone to see a little rust on their gear. S/S has a very low breaking point and it bends very easily.
That's not entirely true. Stainless is generally weaker than the equivalent regular steel, but one doesn't have to use mild 316 for everything. We use SAF 2205 (a very costly high tensile grade stainless) for the shanks on our SS anchors, and it is not too much weaker than the high tensile 800 grade steel we use for our galvanized models. Polished stainless does look beautiful and never requires re-galvanizing. It certainly isn't cost effective, but that doesn't matter to some people!

The same arguments apply to chain, with the additional advantage of how the chain behaves in the locker; it tends to fall nicely and not "cone" like galvanized.
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Old 14-11-2007, 20:26   #37
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That speaks more to the anchor than the chain, i.e. that it's tolerance isn't very high. The only factor that matters in this sense is that angle on the anchor. Let out enough scope and the weight of the chain is largely unimportant.
That is exactly what I said was unexceptable.

The weight of the chain is a huge factor in how your anchor performs in extreme conditions. That is one of the reasons we use chain road vs nylon road.

It is the weight of the chain that keeps the shank of the anchor laying on the sea floor. If the shank lifts in a gust, it may well (and probably will) pull out.

My stated reason for changing to the heavier chain was the amount of scope that I had to pay out to keep my place in an anchorage. Often times, in the islands, 10' could be the difference from being in deep water or being on the coral. I was constantly having to sit on 7-10:1 scope, which would limit the places that I could anchor. I had to carry a kedge to hang on my chain so that I could lay to shorter scope. That was a pain in the neck and in some cases, down right dangerous.

With the heavier 3/8" chain, I could comfortably lay to 5:1 scope (in most conditions). This gave me more options in where I could safely anchor my boat.
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Old 14-11-2007, 20:46   #38
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The weight of the chain is a huge factor in how your anchor performs in extreme conditions.
No - it isn't. This is an old myth that's really only true if you're a big ship or you're anchoring with a brick. Read the link above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanani View Post
My stated reason for changing to the heavier chain was the amount of scope that I had to pay out to keep my place in an anchorage. Often times, in the islands, 10' could be the difference from being in deep water or being on the coral. I was constantly having to sit on 7-10:1 scope, which would limit the places that I could anchor.
There is little benefit much above 8:1. In any case, scope is really the only thing that matters. In "extreme" conditions, the chain will be bar tight no matter what it is. Perhaps your idea of extreme differs to mine, but if the anchor's dragging before the chain is tight, that only speaks poorly of the anchor. Thinking the chain's weight makes the difference you are implying is only a false sense of security which will get you into trouble when the chips are really down.

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I had to carry a kedge to hang on my chain so that I could lay to shorter scope. That was a pain in the neck and in some cases, down right dangerous.
That's another way of describing a kellet, which is equally useless in terms of performance - and as you correctly say, a complicating factor which can be a problem.
Article: Kellets or Anchor Angels / Sentinels - Uses and Applications

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Originally Posted by Kanani View Post
With the heavier 3/8" chain, I could comfortably lay to 5:1 scope (in most conditions). This gave me more options in where I could safely anchor my boat.
You kind of have this back to front, with too much focus on the chain. The chain doesn't hold the boat - the anchor does. If you need to reduce the scope, then why have all that weight of the chain not deployed in the forepeak / chain locker where it does no good? Much better to have an over-sized anchor which can tolerate the higher pull angle.

For example, one of the most knowledgeable and experienced people on this topic is Steve Dashew. Consider he uses 3/8" high tensile chain on a 83' boat... but with a big anchor. Why? Because he likes to be able to anchor on short scope for convenience, but knows he can extend the scope out and still benefit from a massive anchor when needed. That's a smart strategy.
(The drawback is cost, both in the expensive chain and the larger anchor).

See: http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/dashew/dashew420.html
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Old 14-11-2007, 23:22   #39
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Originally Posted by craigsmith View Post
No - it isn't. This is an old myth that's really only true if you're a big ship or you're anchoring with a brick. Read the link above.


There is little benefit much above 8:1. In any case, scope is really the only thing that matters. In "extreme" conditions, the chain will be bar tight no matter what it is. Perhaps your idea of extreme differs to mine, but if the anchor's dragging before the chain is tight, that only speaks poorly of the anchor. Thinking the chain's weight makes the difference you are implying is only a false sense of security which will get you into trouble when the chips are really down.


That's another way of describing a kellet, which is equally useless in terms of performance - and as you correctly say, a complicating factor which can be a problem.
Article: Kellets or Anchor Angels / Sentinels - Uses and Applications

You kind of have this back to front, with too much focus on the chain. The chain doesn't hold the boat - the anchor does. If you need to reduce the scope, then why have all that weight of the chain not deployed in the forepeak / chain locker where it does no good? Much better to have an over-sized anchor which can tolerate the higher pull angle.

For example, one of the most knowledgeable and experienced people on this topic is Steve Dashew. Consider he uses 3/8" high tensile chain on a 83' boat... but with a big anchor. Why? Because he likes to be able to anchor on short scope for convenience, but knows he can extend the scope out and still benefit from a massive anchor when needed. That's a smart strategy.
(The drawback is cost, both in the expensive chain and the larger anchor).

See: http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/dashew/dashew420.html
My friend, you obviously speak out of an ubandance of inexperience. Ground tackle is made up of a combination of anchor and rode.

I have set out 60+ kts of wind at anchor (55# Delta). The idea of "Bar tight" is what is a "Myth" what you are feeling is the weight of the chain, not a solid piece of unhinged steel. The anchor chain is in a constant staight of pulling tight and going slack as a boat manouvers to the winds.

It is the weight of the road that keeps the vessel from pulling the shank of the anchor up in the gusts, I can assure you. If you dispute that, you can try laying at anchor on an all nylon rode sometime.
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Old 15-11-2007, 01:30   #40
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For example, one of the most knowledgeable and experienced people on this topic is Steve Dashew. Consider he uses 3/8" high tensile chain on a 83' boat... but with a big anchor. Why?
Simple, he has a very very lightweight, windage free, fine fine bowed boat, which is very different to most. It's damn near a 83ft canoe. So he doesn't need the sized gear normal boats do. It is one cool boat for a fizzy though, I do like the boats concept.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanani
The weight of the chain is a huge factor in how your anchor performs in extreme conditions.

No - it isn't. This is an old myth that's really only true if you're a big ship or you're anchoring with a brick. Read the link above.
We frequently get people in with slipping anchors. We suggest adding more chain. Often only adding 20%, sometimes up to 50% in length. Occasionally go up one size and at the same length. The end result in 95% of the cases is the anchor stop slipping. That is a verifiable everyday real life fact.

Personally I don't give a rats botty if it is not the right way to do it or not, all I do know is that it works and gives my punters the result they wanted.

Is that the best thing to do all in all situations? Hell no.
Is all chain the best rode to have? Hell no.
Is all rope the best to have? Hell no.
Is putting an anchor on the end of your chain all ways the best thing to do? Hell no (may I add, but it is usually)
Does adding chain help most anchors to hold better in most common situations? Hell yes.

Quote:
When I was in Australia, I bought a new gypsy for my windlass and 300' of 3/8" BBB chain. I was very impressed with the holding power that I got from that additional weight. I would think twice about splicing any chain. Unless you actually did go to 1/2" chain (as mentioned in your 1st post). There are good links available for 1/2" commercial chain. However, that may be a bit of overkill.
You brought BBB in Australia?? That's weird.
There are a couple of perfectly fine joining links on the market for chains down to 6mm (1/4")

Quote:
S/S chain and anchors are meant for looks only. They are not made to be used. They are designed for people that like to look good in the marina and don't want anyone to see a little rust on their gear. S/S has a very low breaking point and it bends very easily.
Na, sorry I'm right in there with Craig on this one and we are not alone.

Craig has the anchor side nailed now the chain side;
8mm SS - WLL 1250kg, BL 5050kg. G40 Steel - WLL1000kg, BL 4000kg
10mm SS - WLL 1960kg, BL 7850kg. G40 Steel - WLL1600kg, BL 6400kg

So that chain is stronger than a G40, it's a G50. A SS chain built to any particular grade has the meet the numbers, it's that simple. Buy a crap chain and have problems. Buy a good one and the worlds your oyster. Sure you do have to watch SS chains in some installations but that's more a 'how the boat is set-up' thing rather than a chain alone flaw.
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Old 15-11-2007, 02:21   #41
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Originally Posted by GMac View Post
Simple, he has a very very lightweight, windage free, fine fine bowed boat, which is very different to most. It's damn near a 83ft canoe. So he doesn't need the sized gear normal boats do. It is one cool boat for a fizzy though, I do like the boats concept.
Nope, it's because he has a helluva lot of experience around the world and knows what works for him. As a rather technical designer he also knows the theory and doesn't buy into whatever the going lore is, handed down as it is from the 18th century when the only market for anchor chain consisted of tallships with Admiralty style picks...

Of course his boat isn't particularly demanding for its LOA, but then why does he put on a 110Kg anchor when we recommend a 70 (and even that's conservative)?

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Craig has the anchor side nailed now the chain side;
8mm SS - WLL 1250kg, BL 5050kg. G40 Steel - WLL1000kg, BL 4000kg
10mm SS - WLL 1960kg, BL 7850kg. G40 Steel - WLL1600kg, BL 6400kg
That's medium/high tensile 500 grade SS, right? I mean you can get weak 316 grades too, eh. Should be specific. What would you say you'd be handed if you walked into the average chandlery and asked for 8 or 10mm SS?
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Old 15-11-2007, 09:46   #42
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You brought BBB in Australia?? That's weird.
There are a couple of perfectly fine joining links on the market for chains down to 6mm (1/4")
Yep........got 300' (never used) off of an American yacht that wanted to shed some weight. Can't remember what I paid but it was a steal and that's how I could afford to buy the new gypsy for my windlass.

I actually sold my HT chain for about the same price as the BBB.

As for the link......I don't think that I have ever seen one that would run through a windlass (as the OP requested) that I would ever trust.
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Old 15-11-2007, 17:50   #43
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Getting the chain on the boat...

I don't even want to think about how heavy 300' of chain is.

So how do you get the chain on the boat.

I'm thinking crane...
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Old 15-11-2007, 18:39   #44
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I don't even want to think about how heavy 300' of chain is.

So how do you get the chain on the boat.

I'm thinking crane...
We put it in a wood box, rolled it down the dock with a dolly. Attached the nylon road to the chain, fead the chain into the chain locker with the windlass, from the box. Not hard at all.
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Old 15-11-2007, 19:08   #45
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So how do you get the chain on the boat.
Kanani has the ticket on this one. You don't load serious tonage any other way. With a big enough pile of chain you don't need an anchor.
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