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Old 28-06-2016, 05:12   #16
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

An enterprising individual might consider combining AIS-DSC-EPIRB into one unit.
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Old 28-06-2016, 07:13   #17
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

I have an AIS Sart.
With it in the water I doubt its worth a pinch of poop over 1nm.
Think of it at water level whilst u can still hold it up, even a 1 foot swell at 12 seconds means its below water level half the time, 30 second transmittion packages, a battery that cant be checked, no transmit indicator/countdown.

You have to get the rescue boat right close to you with the EPIRB before a SART will do much.
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Old 28-06-2016, 07:42   #18
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Now for a vessel in distress, an EPIRB is my plan.
I have an old PLB that I used to fly with over water, but can't see how it would be better than an EPIRB, the EPIRB is small, floats and has a bright flashing light on it, it's not much bigger than a handheld VHF, and since it floats, in water it has no weight.

There was an independent test on the AIS device I had and they got 5 to 6 miles out of it, which is way more than I think would be needed.
My plan is, God forbid if the wife goes overboard on a dark night and I don't get the AIS alarm within about 60 sec, the EPIRB is being tossed in after her. Hopefully she will swim to the flashing light, and even if she doesn't, it's most likely to stay near her at about the same drift rate.

Cause I think the odds of self rescue on a dark night without electronic aid, isn't good
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Old 28-06-2016, 07:45   #19
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

I haven't read much of this, but it appears that maybe Satellites can receive the AIS SART?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...25596728,d.eWE

On edit, after reading leads me to wonder if this info is used or not?
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Old 28-06-2016, 07:52   #20
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Now for a vessel in distress, an EPIRB is my plan.
I have an old PLB that I used to fly with over water, but can't see how it would be better than an EPIRB, the EPIRB is small, floats and has a bright flashing light on it, it's not much bigger than a handheld VHF, and since it floats, in water it has no weight.

There was an independent test on the AIS device I had and they got 5 to 6 miles out of it, which is way more than I think would be needed.
My plan is, God forbid if the wife goes overboard on a dark night and I don't get the AIS alarm within about 60 sec, the EPIRB is being tossed in after her. Hopefully she will swim to the flashing light, and even if she doesn't, it's most likely to stay near her at about the same drift rate.

Cause I think the odds of self rescue on a dark night without electronic aid, isn't good
MOB on a dark night is a nightmare scenario. Scares me to death. I carry AIS SART and also PLB on deck at night, and I stay in the cockpit to the extent possible, and clip on.

I think probably AIS SART and PLB for every person on deck is probably a good idea; I don't have that much equipment yet.

Modern PLBs float and have bright flashing strobe lights -- just like your EPIRB. And fit in your life jacket pocket. I have mine attached to the lifejacket with a lanyard so they won't get separated. So that basically -- if you have the lifejacket, you have the electronic devices.
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Old 28-06-2016, 08:00   #21
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I haven't read much of this, but it appears that maybe Satellites can receive the AIS SART?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...25596728,d.eWE

On edit, after reading leads me to wonder if this info is used or not?
Just read the lot, yes they can.

Unfortunately nothing mentioned about reception by passing ships but I would suggest better than some think when you consider height of 'eye' of the ship's AIS ant and distance of vhf horizon from it.

PS just read your edit when I hit 'reply'
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Old 28-06-2016, 13:08   #22
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
MOB on a dark night is a nightmare scenario.
I think the REAL nightmare scenario is, you wake up in the morning thinking, "Huh. I wonder why the wife didn't wake me up when her watch was over?" You go up on deck, and she is nowhere to be seen. Sometime during the night she fell overboard, and you have no idea when or where. Of course the autopilot or windvane kept the boat hustling along on its course, so now you are... what? 20 miles away? 30 miles away? Or maybe only a mile. You have no idea.

Of course, if you are more than a few miles away, and out in the middle of nowhere, you hope that she has a PLB with her, and has already signaled. You turn around and retrace your course, hoping that maybe you can pick up her SART along the way. But if she has drifted very far off of your course, then you are probably not going to be much help to her. Not unless SAR gets into the area soon and can vector you to her location.

SART and PLB function differently. Either, or both, might be critical in any given scenario. Neither is generally "better" than the other, they are different. One may be better in one scenario, and the other in another scenario. You pays your money and takes your choice.

Personally, as these devices are becoming smaller and less expensive, I think the smart money is on carrying both.
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Old 28-06-2016, 14:52   #23
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
I think the REAL nightmare scenario is, you wake up in the morning thinking, "Huh. I wonder why the wife didn't wake me up when her watch was over?" You go up on deck, and she is nowhere to be seen. Sometime during the night she fell overboard, and you have no idea when or where. Of course the autopilot or windvane kept the boat hustling along on its course, so now you are... what? 20 miles away? 30 miles away? Or maybe only a mile. You have no idea.

Of course, if you are more than a few miles away, and out in the middle of nowhere, you hope that she has a PLB with her, and has already signaled. You turn around and retrace your course, hoping that maybe you can pick up her SART along the way. But if she has drifted very far off of your course, then you are probably not going to be much help to her. Not unless SAR gets into the area soon and can vector you to her location.

SART and PLB function differently. Either, or both, might be critical in any given scenario. Neither is generally "better" than the other, they are different. One may be better in one scenario, and the other in another scenario. You pays your money and takes your choice.

Personally, as these devices are becoming smaller and less expensive, I think the smart money is on carrying both.

A chilling scenario, vividly described

And I agree with your conclusions, too.
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Old 28-06-2016, 15:38   #24
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Read an account of exactly that, here on the Forum not long ago.
Man woke up, I don't believe she was ever found.
The alarm on the Watchmate 850 when the SART is received will wake the dead, even over the engine of its running. I can't speak of others, but I can't imagine sleeping through that.
With our current vests it does require Manual activation, but there is a vest that will trigger the device automatically upon inflation, so even if your unconscious, the SART is activated.


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Old 29-06-2016, 06:13   #25
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
...there is a vest that will trigger the device automatically upon inflation, so even if your unconscious, the SART is activated.
Haven't seen that. If/when it becomes generally available, it would certainly be worth consideration.
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Old 29-06-2016, 06:57   #26
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Haven't seen that. If/when it becomes generally available, it would certainly be worth consideration.
It is generally available:

MOB1 - Ocean Signal


This is a very slick device.
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Old 29-06-2016, 10:13   #27
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Hello to all,
Two quick points....

The first about ranges of AIS-SART's....

The second about rescue response times, EPIRB's/PLB's, and the COSPAS-SARSAT system...(the second one is really important! )

1) This thread is about small AIS-SART's, which are 1-watt VHF-AIS Search And Rescue Transponders (AIS-SART)....and while the ranges quote for their reception from aircraft are pretty accurate, please remember that reception range of them from your boat will be fairly limited...
Although, using your masthead VHF antenna as your AIS antenna will give you a decent line-of-sight (10 miles or so), remember that the AIS-SART antenna will be bobbing in the water, and it can very easily be blocked by the waves...
So, a few miles is about what I would expect...and in heavy seas, probably less....



2) EPIRB response times assumed here by many, would apply to those setting off an EPIRB in US coastal waters, or in US near-offshore waters....(or those in coastal UK waters, etc.)
And, since the original poster here (Cap Erict3) started this as an offshoot of the father and 3 teens lost just a dozen or so miles off the coast of SW Florida....and the OP himself is cruising the Gulf of Mexico, response times measure in hours are probably fine...
BUT...

But, for most out cruising / voyaging, these times are not applicable....and some cruisers may not be aware of how the COSPAS-SARSAT system works, how EPIRB's work, etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
A PLB will only call the CG and it would likely take hours for them to respond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I think they are two completely different types of devices, one short range but should facilitate rescue in just a few minutes [AIS-SART], the other will alert rescue services [PLB or EPIRB], but may take hours to get help. I'm hanging my hat on being able to get to the MOB and get them out of the water before a PLB would even get the CG moving.
Please read these threads, and follow the links there-in (especially the COSPAS-SARSAT and Beth Leonard's article), and you'll see what I'm talking about!
EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirbs-are-not-dead-epirb-activation-what-happens-how-to-improve-rescue-odds-146617.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/activating-epirb-chain-of-events-that-actually-occurs-in-indonesian-waters-46382.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirb-interference-153864.html


In a nutshell...
PLB and/or EPIRB activation sets off a COSPAS-SARSAT alert and the RCC of the country of EPIRB registration is notified of one of their beacons has alerted...(for US registered EPIRB's, yes it is the USCG that is the MRCC)
And, a LEOSAR Doppler position fix (usually a general area) is also given..
And, this takes time...

Then, if the GEOSAR satellites have also received GPS position data, this is also relayed to the RCC...
And, this takes time...

Then, in the "best case scenario", it can also take 3 -4 hours for the RCC to determine if this is valid emergency, and what assets are available to commence a Search And Rescue (SAR)....
And, this takes time...

Then, those assets are contacted, and an SAR plan is implemented...
And, this takes time...

Now, if you're along the coast of Florida, the USCG is sure to have a helo and/or a boat on its way to your beacon's position in short order....
But, if you're in the middle of the ocean, it could be many hours or days before a vessel (usually a SOLAS-grade merchant ship), is able to reach you...
AND...

And, if you're in a 3rd world area, and/or an area of the oceans which comes under the SAR responsibility of 3rd world nations (and even many "modern" 2nd world and some so-called 1st world nations as well), there may NEVER be any SAR plan implemented at all!!

Pease note that while the US, UK, France, Aus, NZ, etc., collectively are responsible for large swaths of our oceans, and do a superb job....fact is that many of the popular cruising routes, are thru areas that rely on other nations for SAR plans, responses, activities, etc....and in those areas, you may not get any!!!


Please, please, please....read over these threads, AND follow the links there-in (especially the COSPAS-SARSAT and Beth Leonard's articles) and you'll learn a lot!!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirbs-are-not-dead-epirb-activation-what-happens-how-to-improve-rescue-odds-146617.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/activating-epirb-chain-of-events-that-actually-occurs-in-indonesian-waters-46382.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirb-interference-153864.html


I do hope this helps...

Fair winds..

John
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Old 29-06-2016, 10:30   #28
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Hello to all,
Two quick points....

The first about ranges of AIS-SART's....

The second about rescue response times, EPIRB's/PLB's, and the COSPAS-SARSAT system...(the second one is really important! )

1) This thread is about small AIS-SART's, which are 1-watt VHF-AIS Search And Rescue Transponders (AIS-SART)....and while the ranges quote for their reception from aircraft are pretty accurate, please remember that reception range of them from your boat will be fairly limited...
Although, using your masthead VHF antenna as your AIS antenna will give you a decent line-of-sight (10 miles or so), remember that the AIS-SART antenna will be bobbing in the water, and it can very easily be blocked by the waves...
So, a few miles is about what I would expect...and in heavy seas, probably less....



2) EPIRB response times assumed here by many, would apply to those setting off an EPIRB in US coastal waters, or in US near-offshore waters....(or those in coastal UK waters, etc.)
And, since the original poster here (Cap Erict3) started this as an offshoot of the father and 3 teens lost just a dozen or so miles off the coast of SW Florida....and the OP himself is cruising the Gulf of Mexico, response times measure in hours are probably fine...
BUT...

But, for most out cruising / voyaging, these times are not applicable....and some cruisers may not be aware of how the COSPAS-SARSAT system works, how EPIRB's work, etc...

Please read these threads, and follow the links there-in (especially the COSPAS-SARSAT and Beth Leonard's article), and you'll see what I'm talking about!
EPIRB's are NOT dead! / EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds!!
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirbs-are-not-dead-epirb-activation-what-happens-how-to-improve-rescue-odds-146617.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/activating-epirb-chain-of-events-that-actually-occurs-in-indonesian-waters-46382.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirb-interference-153864.html


In a nutshell...
PLB and/or EPIRB activation sets off a COSPAS-SARSAT alert and the RCC of the country of EPIRB registration is notified of one of their beacons has alerted...(for US registered EPIRB's, yes it is the USCG that is the MRCC)
And, a LEOSAR Doppler position fix (usually a general area) is also given..
And, this takes time...

Then, if the GEOSAR satellites have also received GPS position data, this is also relayed to the RCC...
And, this takes time...

Then, in the "best case scenario", it can also take 3 -4 hours for the RCC to determine if this is valid emergency, and what assets are available to commence a Search And Rescue (SAR)....
And, this takes time...

Then, those assets are contacted, and an SAR plan is implemented...
And, this takes time...

Now, if you're along the coast of Florida, the USCG is sure to have a helo and/or a boat on its way to your beacon's position in short order....
But, if you're in the middle of the ocean, it could be many hours or days before a vessel (usually a SOLAS-grade merchant ship), is able to reach you...
AND...

And, if you're in a 3rd world area, and/or an area of the oceans which comes under the SAR responsibility of 3rd world nations (and even many "modern" 2nd world and some so-called 1st world nations as well), there may NEVER be any SAR plan implemented at all!!

Pease note that while the US, UK, France, Aus, NZ, etc., collectively are responsible for large swaths of our oceans, and do a superb job....fact is that many of the popular cruising routes, are thru areas that rely on other nations for SAR plans, responses, activities, etc....and in those areas, you may not get any!!!


Please, please, please....read over these threads, AND follow the links there-in (especially the COSPAS-SARSAT and Beth Leonard's articles) and you'll learn a lot!!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirbs-are-not-dead-epirb-activation-what-happens-how-to-improve-rescue-odds-146617.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/activating-epirb-chain-of-events-that-actually-occurs-in-indonesian-waters-46382.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/epirb-interference-153864.html


I do hope this helps...

Fair winds..

John
As usual, an encyclopedic dump of knowledge from John


I would just add to this, that this underlines the importance of DSC distress calls, which get much faster responses than other types of calls. A DSC distress call over VHF can have SAR assets moving in minutes -- I am a witness to this. Someone accidentally popped a DSC distress call while practicing MOB procedure, near Cowes, a couple of years ago. I was sailing towards the Needles Channel at the time, and heard it all. Within less than 5 minutes, I think more like 2 - 3 minutes, the Coast Guard rescue helicopter was streaking overhead towards the "casualty". They did not verify the call by voice -- they just took off as soon as they heard the DSC call followed up by a voice Mayday (which was just for practice so it was a false alarm). They get the lon-lat together with the initial call, then number of persons on board and the nature of emergency from the mayday call, and that's all they need.

This is probably not typical -- the world's best rescue services operating close inshore in the most crowded waters -- but still you see the difference to using the COSPAS system as John described.

In those waters, red rocket flares get a similar response.

I don't think this is quite typical, but still.
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Old 29-06-2016, 11:47   #29
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Re: AIS-DSC-SART vs PLB

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This is a very slick device.
It is indeed. Not inexpensive, but then, what's your life worth?



(When I think about the cost of safety equipment I always think about the ads that Bell Helmets used to run back in the 1960's... "If you have a $10 head, buy someone else's $10 helmet.")
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