Air Quality for Liveaboards

[ssullivan]

Hmmm... that stinks. I wonder what the best alternative is. Bleach also causes every single side effect and adverse health condition that the ozone generator would.

[Alan Wheeler]

Thanks Eaglesail, you bet me to it. Ozone is nasty nasty stuff when in the quantities required to "kill" anything. There is no "small amount" that will kill nasties and not damage us. And as Eagle has also stated, Ozone reacts with substances in such away, that is allows other dangerouse toxins to enter the air.
Sean, chlorine is your best solution. Weak concentrations of it, then allow what you have sprayed to sit in sunlight to dry. The UV very quickly breaks chlorine down into salt.
By the way, that black mould has been the subject of many arguments with health issues over the years. One comment you made though, about a client coming up from below and his nose cleared. An alergic reaction to mould spores will not stop so quickly. So I suggest he simply had a blocked nose. But it is quite possible that other "dusts and pollens" in the air outside, could also be causing an issue. It maynot JUST be what is in your boat. And yes, you can get pollens at many different times of the year, not JUST spring.
We are just entering spring now and as of a good month now, we have had so much pollen in the air from the surrounding forests that the ground and cars etc is yellow. I kid you not. It is not good for us sinuse sufferers, sniff sniff.

[hellosailor]

Sean, there is another option. UV light, in the range called UV-C, will break down DNA and that includes molds and spores. There are air filters that use UV-C lights (in traps) and fixtures that use UV-C lights (for use when you won't be looking at them) and that type of filter, or leaving a UV-C light on when you aren't below, would help kill any airborne mold spores. These are the same UV-C type bulbs used as the final stage in water purification systems, for the same reason.

I have no idea what it would do to any varnishwork down below.<G>

[Alan Wheeler]

Ummm, yeah, wouldn't it cause fading of colours. I suppose you could still get a tan on rainy days though, so it maybe a plus. ;-)

[Richhh]

mmmm
You folks may be 'rationalizing' too much.
Simply look at the methods of approved from US CDC and FDA as would be used in Hospitals and Bio-pharmaceutical manufacture, etc.
1. hygiene --- physically scrub/remove the stuff.
2. Apply a disinfectant... such as Peracetic Acid + hydrogen peroxide, Formaldehyde, quatenary ammonia compounds, etc. .... all requireing 'special' expertise so you dont harm yourself.
3. Use HEPA filtration during the clean-up.
4. Create a surface that retards bio-growth: similar to 'whitewashing' - spray on a mildly caustic detergent and let it dry.

Ozone, bleaches, oxidants as mentioned ..... are ineffective and possibly harmful to YOU. The BEST is mechanical scrubbing to keep the 'counts' low and remove the colonies. There is NO magic bullet. Soap and water is your first/primary means of control.

[CSY Man]

Good information from all.

I have a good old boat that have lived in the tropics most of her 27 year life:
We get some mildew after a few months without washing/scrubbing the ceiling in the V-berth.

Have in the past used citric acid and vinegear. Got that recepie from friends that have lived aboard in Panama for 20 years...Lots of heat/humidity down there.

A few weeks ago I went for the "un-seen" places and found black stuff on the rags. LOTS of black stuff.
Pulled out a can of acetone and plenty of rags. Cleaned good and got plenty more black rags, but kept going to the rags came out clean. Used Denatured Alcohol after I ran out of Acetone. It also seemed to work well.

Question for Richhh:

Is there any reason acetone would not kill and remove dead and living spores/mildew/fungus, etc as well as the stuff you recommend?

(Most if the interior of the boat is factory gelcoat, no head-liners or carpets.)

Never had the sniffs or allergies while living onbaord, probably not allergic, but we always had good ventilation on the boat as we don't have A/C.
Plenty of hatches with bug-screens instead, they can even be cracked while it is raining..Also plenty of 12V fans to circulate the air.

The cockpit lockers are next to get the strong Acetone treatment. There is some pretty dark areas down there and no ventilation.
Problem is, I am too big and fat to get in the lockers to clean 'em.
Only the wife would fit in there, but to get her to climb in, lay face up and clean under deck with acetone would take an act of God, or a promise of trip to Paris or some other expensive carrot.....

[Richhh]

Acetone, gasoline, acids, caustics, etc. All you have to do is change the 'conditions' on/of which these species thrive and they ... 'wont'.

Its just that you really want to change the 'environment" on which it grows to something that doesnt support such growth. Simple cleaning is good, but then you have to keep cleaning, and cleaning and cleaning and cleaning, etc.

If you leave a 'caustic' or 'highly acidic' surface, the spores wont grow or will grow at a very 'retarded' rate. Simply 'killing' wont work as the dead cells are and can be the nutrient sources for other species .... that how nature works: every living thing in the world is eating some other living/dead 'other thing'. To retard any growth of any species, simply change the conditions that allow such species to grow.

Our ancestors for milennia simply 'whitewashed' such surfaces with 'quicklime', etc. Such caustic surfaces retarded growth. I think a modern 'equivalent' to whitewashing is to spray-on a caustic detergent and simply let it dry.

[CSY Man]

Okay, thanks Richhh.

Yeah, I will look into something that will hamper growth of the bastards.

So far I am using a large 110 volt fan and open hatches 24/7 to ventilate the boat. Been using the fan for years and we don't have any old boat smell, or any other big problems, the only exception is the hard to reach places that has never been cleaned in 27 years...And it shows.

Simply 'killing' wont work as the dead cells are and can be the nutrient sources for other species ....

Yeah, but won't the Acetone remove the dead cells and all...?

If you leave a 'caustic' or 'highly acidic' surface, the spores wont grow or will grow at a very 'retarded' rate.

Would that be vinegear and lemon/lime juice?

We used caustic soda as cargo on a chemical tanker I sailed on and remember a crew member got badly burned on the arms from trying to use the stuff for cleaning. That incident stuck in my memory and I have stayed away from the stuff ever since.

(We also carried Vodka on the tanker, 500 tons of it: Some of the boys helped themselfs to a quart or two and the party was on...Did not stay away from that stuff. )

At any rate, thanks for the advice, much appreciated.

[ssullivan]

Richhh sounds like he knows a thing or two about biology in general. I get this from the terms he is using. Quick question, Rich: I found a website during my first clean up of the boat. It was a CDC site that said it suggested homeowners use a solution of dishsoap and bleach (diluted with water) to clean and scrub the mold away. Is this ok?

Also, what types of "caustic detergents" do you suggest?

Boy, I sure wish that ozone generator would work. I really would prefer to let off a "bomb" of some sort and leave the boat for a day to keep myself mold free (kill the few that re-establish themselves). Guess there is no way to do that, huh?

This has turned into a very interesting thread. One thing I know for sure is that our air quality has noticeably improved since we started cleaning up the mold. Yesterday, I woke up for the first time since moving onto this boat 14 months ago without any type of sinus feeling, stuffy nose, or tightness in my chest. I could BREATHE!

I'm not allergic to anything (known) and am very insensitive to most chemicals and compounds. Bleach poured all over me in a bilge the other day and I just kept on cleaning without any adverse effects. I think it was living in here every day, spending all my time in here that caused me to have problems with the mold. I have no outdoor allergies or any other health problems. This is definitely something inside this boat.

[Alan Wheeler]

Richhh is right about removing the "environment" that they like to thrive in. It's important to keep it simple. Nature is simple and her remedies are simple. Moulds do NOT like growing in area's with air movement. They MUST have moisture, usually a minimum of 20%. They do NOT like Sunlight. So if you can change any or all of those three things, then moulds will not grow.
I like using mild mixes of Chlorine because it is quick and breaks down fast afterwards. If used in a mild mix, bleaching is not a problem, but bleaching can occure if you have it too strong, so becareful. I imagine Vineger and lemon juice would also be good. Never thought of that and must try it.
Once you have initialy dosed the mould, just simply alter their environment with any or all the three above. Good ventilation, a Dehumidifier, and plenty of sunlight. Open cupboard doors and hatches and let light and air in as often as you can.
Moulds must have conditions JUST RIGHT to live. Destroying spores is next to impossible. So don't use dangerouse substances like Acetone etc. Spores are only produced on living moulds. So stop the moulds from living by any or all of the three above.

[hellosailor]

Sean-
Stop by Plum Island, like any good biohazard facility they DO have the "bombs" that you want. Well, the gas, no explosives required. In the event of a biohazard contamination, they use both gasses and wash downs--because as Richhh says, you still have to remove the teeny tiny little bodies of the fallen dead.

Seriously though, entombment is equally effective. Couple of heavy coats of white imprevious paint (two-part urethane, epoxy, take your pick of anything that's good and solid) with some fungicide mixed into it, and you'll have nice shiny clean bilges and odd places that you can't reach to check on.

If you stop at Plum Island remember the protocol is to bring LOTS of fresh donuts, they don't get many visitors.<G>

[ssullivan]

Ha ha ha!! Hillarious about Plum Island. I'm sure they have the cure for us. Good idea about using some kind of paint with biocide too. This is probalby one of the trickiest boat problems, since as Wheels says... they require damp places, dark places, and places without a lot of air movement.

A boat in the colder climates has all three conditions in abundance! \\

Well, after we are done bleaching it all out, we will have a few weeks until we winter over at a dock. Since we'll be hooked up to society and all of that, we will be able to run a dehumidifier economically and will probably fire up the wood stove. Hopefully, that will help a bit in drying the place out, which should hopefully keep the new ones from growing.

The battle rages on!

[Sandero]

You might want to add ventilation to every locker and closed space.. even small active fans which you can run occassionally to ventilate... perhaps including bilges with limber holes for air?

Is anyone usng powerful vacuums to remove all dust and so forth?

Cleaning with bleach etc. and then painting with a biocide seems to be a good approach...

I suspect a lot of nasties get into uphosltery, pillows, cushions and carpets which requires some serious cleaning.

Jef
sv Shiva
Contest 36s

[ssullivan]

Good ideas, Jef. We have definitely tackled the upholstery and cushions. Brought them to the laundry and bleached them like no tomorrow. I also put the foam from inside the cushions out on deck and sprayed them with undiluted bleach before giving them 2 days in the sun. No more mold at all on any of that.

[Richhh]

Sean -
I prefer detergents containing sodium silicates. Good for dissolving mold/mildew cells. I started using such for cleaning dacron sails (follwed with an oxalic bleaching). I got to notice that the sodium silicate was the 'bomb' on releasing 'artillery fungus' (teen black specks) from sails. I noticed that I had artillery fuingus under seat lockers and it worked so well on those places that I now use it for just about all mold/mildew - because it dissolves it.
BTW - Such detergents can be obtained from janitorial supplies, WEST MARINE used to carry it - the brand was called Tuff-eNuff.
BTW - Im also get involved in the disinfection of bio-pharm clean rooms where we 'dry-fog' with micronic sized aerosols of 1% peracetic acid and Hydrogen peroxide .... which is the probably the best 'killer' for all microorganisms - viruses, bacteria, fungals, etc. etc. On my boat I kill all the hidden spaces with peracetic +H2O2 and then dissolve the rest with sodium silicates. I'll use TSP tri-sodium phosphate (hardware store stuff) if I cant find the others.
I say again, you have to clean it after you kill it ... or you'll just wind up with an infection of yet another species.
I was a volunteer paramedic for 25+ years and well know the results of stochybatris, aspergillus, etc. .... the super dangerous black crap that lives on cellar walls.