Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-05-2009, 05:56   #91
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
Well, we made it to Page 6 without a Warning being posted! Congratulations! I don't know if that's some sort of record or not.

OK, here it is...

WARNING: this thread will be closed without further notice unless the content of the posts get back to the core focus of this Forum--cruising and boating.
__________________

__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 06:22   #92
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Thread drift? No, its just that the gun lobby are once again using this site to expouse their extremist views by labelling the leaders of nations such as Canada, England, Sweden, Finland and most Caribbean nations fascists and suggesting that cruisers should either disobey gun control laws because 'man and woman are honor bound (sic)to resist tyranny at every level', or at least foment civil disobedience amongst the locals.

Back to sailing in foreign waters, when I enter the territorial waters of a foreign state I respect their laws, recognizing that I am the visitor. I do not equate their leaders to Hitler and suggest that by imposing gun control laws (and keeping the murder rate down), their current governments are on the path to a cultural genocide and hence should be resisted at every level. Although Zerokini would ignore them, I applaud Gord May for posting the gun laws of various cruising destinations as pertain to foreign flagged vessels. Like Gord, I am of the view that when in Rome, we should do as the Romans - and a knowledge of their laws and a respect for their institutions is certainly a good start.

Brad
__________________

__________________
Southern Star is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 06:43   #93
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Tellie's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hollywood, Fl.
Boat: FP Athena 38' Poerava
Posts: 3,046
I doubt one person is the gun lobby Star. This is a very personal decision and one made from many different personal experiances and beliefs. No one has all the right answers for all of the people. I do believe we can discuss this civially and believe all so far have. Though even in civil discussions emotions can be elevated, we just need to re-check them every now and then. On to page 7
Tellie is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 06:57   #94
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
Thanks, Tellie.

You make a good point. "On topic" is one criteria for keeping a thread open, but civil is very important here as well (reference our "Be Nice" rule).
__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 07:00   #95
Registered User
 
Zerokini's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Thread drift? No, its just that the gun lobby are once again using this site to expouse their extremist views by labelling the leaders of nations such as Canada, England, Sweden, Finland and most Caribbean nations fascists and suggesting that cruisers should either disobey gun control laws because 'man and woman are honor bound (sic)to resist tyranny at every level', or at least foment civil disobedience amongst the locals.

Back to sailing in foreign waters, when I enter the territorial waters of a foreign state I respect their laws, recognizing that I am the visitor. I do not equate their leaders to Hitler and suggest that by imposing gun control laws (and keeping the murder rate down), their current governments are on the path to a cultural genocide and hence should be resisted at every level. Although Zerokini would ignore them, I applaud Gord May for posting the gun laws of various cruising destinations as pertain to foreign flagged vessels. Like Gord, I am of the view that when in Rome, we should do as the Romans - and a knowledge of their laws and a respect for their institutions is certainly a good start.

Brad
"Gun lobby"? That's a revealing choice of phrase. For your information, I represent me. I don't represent, nor am I authorized to speak for, any so-called "gun lobby." Nor do I agree with the suck-up-to-the-BATFE National Rifle Association: I believe in personal rights, whether on land or cruising to foreign lands on a cruising boat. And yes, any government, and any government functionary, that exists for any purpose other than the protection of the rights of the people, both citizens and others, is fascist and a fascist pig, respectively.

We are talking about the wisdom and legitimacy of carrying firearms on cruising boats for personal protection, and I think everything said here has been pertinent to that -- with the exception of Southern Star calling me "gun lobby".
__________________
Zerokini is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 07:26   #96
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,635
While off-topic, I feel it's important to clarify some statements with facts:
10% of Canadians own guns - with about a quarter of all households having guns in them; 90% of Swedes own guns (probably due to military service requirements) and about half of all Finnish households have guns in them. At least according to the UN: http://www.uncjin.org/Documents/6comm/4e.pdf

Back on the original topic - notwithstanding the fact they were apparently cruising Venezuela, for all intents and purposes the attack occurred on the high seas. It was also obvious that there was deliberate murderous intent by the attackers. The author of the article simply opined that offering credible resistance would most likely deter malevolent boarders. While the flaregun proved effective in this case, the author also credits the sea-state and fading daylight in warding off the attackers. There is a very clear distinction in this type of "pirate attack" versus burglars breaking and entering while at anchor. One is still able to comply with countries' gun regulations, and be armed on the high seas.
__________________
Lodesman is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 09:45   #97
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Your right Zerokini, associating you with any legitimate gun lobby was clearly unfair to them. I apologize to members of the NRA and other such groups and acknowledge, as Tellie put it, that one person does not represent the gun lobby.

I still do not believe that calling the governments (and government officials) of the numerous sovereign states that support gun control names has advanced the discussion, any more than I believe that it is productive to debate the true meaning of freedom in a political context. In this connection, comparing these countries and their leaders with Hitler and bringing up the horrors of the holocaust is, in my opinion, both inflammatory and offensive. It is, of course, offensive (and clearly intended to be), not only to the leaders who support gun control, but also to the people who democratically elected them (and who obviously do not share Zerokini's views). Zerokini, you might be wise to recall the old adage that 'honest people can honestly disagree', rather than resorting to perjorative terminology in order to describe everyone who disagrees with your own particular (and far from universal) slant.

Lodesman, I completely agree that guns could have lawfully been used in this instance, although I still believe that it may have 'ramped-up' the situation and made it worse. In the final analysis, we have some here who would have carried and used firearms in this instance (and many other situations where it was also ultimately unnecessary), and others that would not. Again, although I am sure this notion (and perhaps even the language) is offensive to some, 'Vive la difference!'

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 09:52   #98
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I also keep a cutlass on board my boat for close in defense.
A Cutlass? A man after my own heart


Quote:
Originally Posted by bene505 View Post
I've been to Auschwitz (many years later). It was methodical, engineered murder. And it's a reminder that the giving up of rights is a very slippery slope.
Me Grandad got deported by the Germans (back then we weren't fighting "the Nazis" over ideological differences, we were fighting the Germans mainly because they were the Germans )......from occupied Jersey to Germany.

Small world that it is a good mate of mine is German and his grandad was in Jersey during the war - some sort of harbourmaster (see, a boaty connection ) - so a fair chance his grandad helped deport my grandad ...........Grandad DOJ got deported for "resistance against the third Reich" - involving the liberation of various goods from the German Armed forces. mainly petrol from the Navy. and then supplying these goods to the local population via the "freemarket system" ..........of course at the time he was kinda (?) working for the German Navy (as an engineer) on the supply barges running between Jersey and nearby France (boaty connection #2 ). The crew were usually armed, and often travelled in convoy with armed escorts - and never had any trouble with Pirates, possibly because they were all employed onboard.............

However RAF were a PITA from time to time Ironically, at the time his wife was in England making bullets in a factory, not sure if that was for the RAF - but in any event the marriage didn't survive the war, although Grandad DOJ did. Hooked up with the US Army for a while. Apparently part of their supply chain Wouldn't say he was the black sheep of the family

Bit of thread drift, keep meaning to do some famiily tree research - I wouldn't be surprised if their weren't a few DOJ family Pirate stories back in ye olden days. I wonder on which side?
David_Old_Jersey is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 10:53   #99
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
, I completely agree that guns could have lawfully been used in this instance, although I still believe that it may have 'ramped-up' the situation and made it worse. In the final analysis, we have some here who would have carried and used firearms in this instance (and many other situations where it was also ultimately unnecessary), and others that would not. Again, although I am sure this notion (and perhaps even the language) is offensive to some, 'Vive la difference!'

Brad
Quite right, Brad. I don't necessarily agree, nor disagree with what the author has written - I posted the account because we rarely get to hear from cruisers who've been there, done that, lived to tell about it and wished they had done differently. Of course we'll never know what might have been, and it's unlikely we'll ever know if the author actually will arm himself. As they say talk is cheap, and in the cold light of day, he may have yet another change of heart.
__________________
Lodesman is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 12:11   #100
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
While off-topic, I feel it's important to clarify some statements with facts:
10% of Canadians own guns - with about a quarter of all households having guns in them; 90% of Swedes own guns (probably due to military service requirements) and about half of all Finnish households have guns in them. At least according to the UN: http://www.uncjin.org/Documents/6comm/4e.pdf
... In Canada, 21.9% of households possessed at least one gun, which is a rate comparable to France, Sweden, and Austria.
At the lower end of the scale, less than 5% of households possessed at least one gun in England and Wales, Scotland, and the Netherlands. In contrast, 36.4% of households in Switzerland and 48.5% of households in the United States possessed at least one gun, representing the higher range of ownership ...
... Canada was among five countries in which fewer than 5% of households owned a handgun and these represented less than 15% of all gun owning households (Figure Three). Specifically, in Canada, 2.3% of all households owned a handgun and this represented 11.7% of all gun owning households ...
... Canadian respondents were considerably more likely to own their firearm for the purpose of hunting (72.7%) than those of any country, while target shooting was the second most common response (18.4%). In addition, 10% of respondents stated that they owned a firearm because there had always been one in the home, and few listed protection as a reason for ownership (4.6%) ...
... In eight of the nine countries, there was a very low reported rate of confrontation with a firearm during a robbery (less than 0.5% of the respondents).
In contrast, among United States respondents, more than 1% had been a victim of at least one firearm-related robbery in the last five years. About as many U.S. respondents (1.10%) said that they were confronted with a gun as Canadian respondents said that they were confronted with any weapon (1.09%) ...

Excerpted from:
Firearms in Canada and Eight Other Western Countries: Selected Findings of the 1996 International Crime (Victim) Survey

Firearms in Canada and Eight Other Western Countries: Selected Findings of the 1996 International Crime (Victim) Survey
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 14:14   #101
Registered User
 
Zerokini's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 43
It's interesting that I get a message from Hud suggersting that I tone down the rhetoric and get back to the subject of cruising & sailing, and when I come back to the board with the intention of doing so, the next five messages are farther off the thread than I was.

BTW, Gord May: There is another reason why Canada and England have few reported instances of victims fighting back with firearms: In those countries it is an automatic five year prison term if you resist an attack by a criminal in any way and so much as put a tiny red mark on his lily white skin by, say, body-blocking him up against a wall, for example. In America we have a right to self defense and defense of property -- and if public demonstrations are any guide, the people of England and Canada believe that too -- but the fascist boffins -- excuse me, the elected caretakers of the body politic -- have them under a legal ball and chain.

But never mind. "Back to our muttons," as Hazel Meade Stone said. Now that Southern Stars' objections have been disposed of, I have a few practical questions of cruiser in foreign ports. If you have any information, or can get any from officials where you are, I'd appreciate knowing the answers:

1. I understand that many, but not all, countries allow cruisers to declare firearms and, if they have a secure locker, to keep them in the locker under customs seal for the duration of their stay "OR" they will take them away (supposedly) "under bond" and give them back when you leave. My questions are:
a. Is there an extra fee for the departure inspection?
b. Does the cruiser have anything to say about whether firearms can be sealed in a locker aboard or taken away (assuming a secure locker)?
c. If the cruiser refuses to allow them to be taken away and the officials insist on it, does the cruiser have the option of weighing anchor and departing without clearing in, and taking his firearms with him or her?
d. Is declaring weapons a guaranteed way of making your boat a target of thieves or pirates because the second cousin of the customs officer hears about this crazy gringo with all the weapons aboard. (Duh, dumb question. I think I know the answer to that one.)

2. As above, but in spite of the above options, some countries have a separate law against specific kinds of weapons, such as prohibiting handguns, or so-called "assault weapon style" rifles, or certain calibers such as anything larger than a .22, or any "military caliber," etc. If a cruiser clears into a country and declares a weapon that turns out to be prohibited, is he allowed to depart with the weapon, or is he jailed, or is the weapon confiscated, or what?

3. If customs insists on taking weapons away "under bond," can the cruiser disable the weapon by removing and keeping the bolt or other firing mechanism to prevent some jerk from using it for target practice while supposedly under bond?

If anyone knows, or can find out, some information on this, I think it would be very helpful for everyone.
__________________
Zerokini is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 16:30   #102
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 497
Images: 1
""There is another reason why Canada and England have few reported instances of victims fighting back with firearms: In those countries it is an automatic five year prison term if you resist an attack by a criminal in any way and so much as put a tiny red mark on his lily white skin by, say, body-blocking him up against a wall, for example.""

Well, I've managed to read this thread with interest and stay out of this but this has to be addressed. I don't know where you heard that but there is no such law in this country. I was a cop for 22 years. Citizens in this country have every right to defend themselves and that right is enshrined in law.
BTW, I am one of the 21% of Canadians who own guns, I have 5 of them. I don't carry one on my boat because I don't feel I need it.
I do agree with you that our governments are slowly but surely de-clawing us and in this province at least, taking our rights away bit by bit. Without question.
__________________
jdoe71 is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 19:26   #103
Registered User
 
Zerokini's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoe71 View Post
""There is another reason why Canada and England have few reported instances of victims fighting back with firearms: In those countries it is an automatic five year prison term if you resist an attack by a criminal in any way and so much as put a tiny red mark on his lily white skin by, say, body-blocking him up against a wall, for example.""

Well, I've managed to read this thread with interest and stay out of this but this has to be addressed. I don't know where you heard that but there is no such law in this country. I was a cop for 22 years. Citizens in this country have every right to defend themselves and that right is enshrined in law.
BTW, I am one of the 21% of Canadians who own guns, I have 5 of them. I don't carry one on my boat because I don't feel I need it.
I do agree with you that our governments are slowly but surely de-clawing us and in this province at least, taking our rights away bit by bit. Without question.
Okay. I hope I will be forgiven for straying from the topic (no more than you did) but I need to say that if what you say is true, why was the rural farm owner in Canada sentenced to five years in jail for using a shotgun to defend his home and life from two punks who tried to rob him for the third time? This happened about a year ago, and was widely reported here. We have dozens of examples of this from England, but this (I think) was the only actual case we heard about from Canada, though we heard many discussions indicating it was part of the problem with the gun registry and crap here 'while back. Maybe we should take this off-line to avoid upsetting the moderator?
__________________
Zerokini is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 21:08   #104
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Carolina
Boat: 44 footer
Posts: 923
I found the story of the yacht Gandalf interesting:

Yachting Magazine - Pirates Return

This thread has been an excellent read so far.

Do those of you who carry firearms on board, also carry quick setting underwater epoxy in the event of the boat being fired upon? I assume that those who don't carry a firearm wouldn't, at least not for that reason...

Zach
__________________
Zach is offline  
Old 08-05-2009, 21:34   #105
Registered User
 
Zerokini's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach View Post
I found the story of the yacht Gandalf interesting:

Yachting Magazine - Pirates Return

This thread has been an excellent read so far.

Do those of you who carry firearms on board, also carry quick setting underwater epoxy in the event of the boat being fired upon? I assume that those who don't carry a firearm wouldn't, at least not for that reason...

Zach
Now, there's a heck of a good idea! Thanks, Zach.
__________________

__________________
Zerokini is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HELP!!! WITH HEART INTERFACE nelsonsmoody Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 5 02-01-2008 04:23
best defense against boat boys danedee Atlantic & the Caribbean 41 09-10-2007 08:28
heart pathmaker ub1 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 4 08-10-2006 10:56
Heart inverter/charger Stevek Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 1 21-08-2006 19:44
heart inverter irwinsailor Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 1 25-07-2004 13:53



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:49.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.