A cautionary tale

[cyan]

Originally Posted by thinwater

But what is wrong with this no-strap video (skip to 1:55)?

The fact that nobody in the history of sailing has ever strapped in that tight whilst sober?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Snore

It does NOT lie!

Ok I am one of the few folks who has had to use a PFD in an emergency. As a kayaker I got rolled and could not pop up. The sea state was such that I lost my float and could not re-enter. Yes I know most intelligent kayakers would not have been out. A 1-1.5 mile swim to shore is good for you

No, you are not one of few. Paddle white water and you will see many. In fact, the only place I have flipped is white water, but that is because my sea kayak is wide.

Your mistake, in my opinion, was wearing an inappropriate PFD. Inflatables are terrible for paddling because of the wear on the neck and because they are terrible to swim or maneuver in once you are in the water. They are not materially more comfortable in my experience, compared to a proper paddling vest, because the motion is different than sailing.

Wrong tool for the job. This is why they make paddling jackets.

(Did you try using the PFD as a float to re-enter? Seems worth knowing how to do.)

----

As for the crotch strap thing, I have repeated FOUR TIMES that I agree with the straps. That does NOT excuse the video maker from rigging the film. Two separate issues that he could have easily resolved by making two separate takes. It doesn't feel sloppy to you, to do bad science?

----

We agree that straps are needed. Discussion of the video is actually far off the point.

What I have NOT heard is a single person who claims or admits to have taken ANY drop on a crotch strap. Any drop. Yet we are discussing exactly that, people who have fallen at least 4 feet. I've never heard a manufacture testing this. In fact, the spec sheets on the straps (and I have discussed this with the manufacturers at the engineering level) state that the straps are ONLY rated for a jump into the water and not for a fall over the rail.

I think those two facts are strange. Just sayin'.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

. . . Your mistake, in my opinion, was wearing an inappropriate PFD. Inflatables are terrible for paddling because of the wear on the neck and because they are terrible to swim or maneuver in once you are in the water. They are not materially more comfortable in my experience, compared to a proper paddling vest, because the motion is different than sailing.

Wrong tool for the job. This is why they make paddling jackets.. . ..

This brings up a completely different question --

Are our life jackets appropriately designed?

Like many cruisers, I'm a good swimmer and love to be in the water, and feel fundamentally comfortable in the water. I jumped in the water once with one of my inflatable life jackets, just to experience what it would be like, and was shocked at how awkward it makes you in the water. It held my head nicely out of the water -- which I understand is key to survival in many cases -- but I couldn't possibly swim in it. I've been overboard twice in my life, and thank God I was not wearing a lifejacket either time. The first time I would surely have died if I had been in a lifejacket, as a strong current was running out to sea (the boat was at anchor), and only by swimming like hell was I able to get back to the mother ship. No one was on deck. The second time I also saved myself by swimming.

Is the design of these jackets really optimum?

[Snore]

Originally Posted by thinwater

No, you are not one of few. Paddle white water and you will see many. In fact, the only place I have flipped is white water, but that is because my sea kayak is wide.

Your mistake, in my opinion, was wearing an inappropriate PFD. Inflatables are terrible for paddling because of the wear on the neck and because they are terrible to swim or maneuver in once you are in the water. They are not materially more comfortable in my experience, compared to a proper paddling vest, because the motion is different than sailing.

Wrong tool for the job. This is why they make paddling jackets.

It doesn't feel sloppy to you, to do bad science?

'.

My post did not state I wore an inflatable when paddling. Apparently that was not clear. My PFD of choice at the time was a Lotus. Not a cheapo.

Regarding my qualifications and ability to select equipment- I have kayaked in 5 Tampa to Key Largo races, one race around FL. During my time racing, sponsors included ACR, Prijon, and Natural High Foods. So I might have been fairly good at the sport.

Once again- we agree both on the need for straps and the need for better objective analysis.

I again offer my services to assist in any study. Having a background in safety and process analysis I would be glad to assist.

That would be a more productive use of our skills.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This brings up a completely different question --

Are our life jackets appropriately designed?

Like many cruisers, I'm a good swimmer and love to be in the water, and feel fundamentally comfortable in the water. I jumped in the water once with one of my inflatable life jackets, just to experience what it would be like, and was shocked at how awkward it makes you in the water. It held my head nicely out of the water -- which I understand is key to survival in many cases -- but I couldn't possibly swim in it. I've been overboard twice in my life, and thank God I was not wearing a lifejacket either time. The first time I would surely have died if I had been in a lifejacket, as a strong current was running out to sea (the boat was at anchor), and only by swimming like hell was I able to get back to the mother ship. No one was on deck. The second time I also saved myself by swimming.

Is the design of these jackets really optimum?

You know that’s interesting. If conscious I may rather have my dinghy racing vest PFD on which would allow some active swimming and movement. But if whacked by boom not at all as good

[SURV69]

I got 2 pennies, so here's my 2 cents ...

The first YouTube test appears to be valid. The tall man would obviously ride the straps higher ... and being skinny does not aid him. The video is not a sales video, but rather seems to be a safety video, although I could be wrong. A second test revered might have better conveyed the safety issues better ... in more light.

Anyway, what I noticed about the tests, other than not being able to observe the actual "failure", of the vest(left), was the, how should I say ... ferocity of the vest inflation ... and at a time when the person was still going down and probably right at the time when a person might be closing his arms over his head to begin swimming to the surface. When one compares the time at which the vest inflates in the Stern test ... a much more controlled and slower inflation, which I think helps to keep the vest on ... along with the much lower strap and a man with a much smaller stomach. In either test, I, and probably everyone I know, would be at a disadvantage because body shape and size.

Two years back, I fell off my boat at 2 am in the Grand River(Fairport Harbor, Ohio). I had one of those non-automatic/manual pull vests(the Coast Guard didn't allow the automatics for a few years) ... I panicked(didn't know how to swim), and even though I complained to myself(while I was trying to stay afloat), as to why this piece of carap vest didn't work properly, I had completely forgotten to pull the %&^$**%^&$ plug. Seeing these tests, now makes me realize I could have actually been in greater danger had the vest inflated ... at the wrong time and impeded my efforts or even demoralize me, had it come off.

I think everyone should really consider straps(maybe even a 1/4" rope with clips), or at the very least adding a clip to one's belt loops if for no other reason, to increase the odds that the vest will not ride over one's head, leaving the person in a potentially untenable situation and in peril.

These safety videos appear to be made by private citizens or private companies. I'm shocked that we weren't looking at Coast Guard videos, spelling out this potential danger and a relatively easy correcting fix.

Reminder: start looking at vests ... maybe one with a few pounds of inherent flotation(I would have thanked God to the high heavens for a pound or two of flotation that night ... for that matter maybe he provided), then add the "air" flotation that fills at a more controlled, slightly slower rate ... AND the ability to add those doggone straps.

[Snowpetrel]

^^Thats the sort of vest I would pay good money for, say a pfd50 or even pfd30 vest, maybe a bit like the old musto vests but with an inflatable section. So it has a bit of inherent floatation with an inflatable 'extra' collar or well thought out extra body floatation. It would also:

Be soft, comfortable and insulating to some degree.

Have fall arrest rated thigh straps.

Pockets for lifesaving gear.

A lifting strop running up to the shoulder for rescue via halyard.

Easy to put on and adjust.

Dry quickly.

[OrinocoFlo]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

^^Thats the sort of vest I would pay good money for, say a pfd50 or even pfd30 vest, maybe a bit like the old musto vests but with an inflatable section. So it has a bit of inherent floatation with an inflatable 'extra' collar or well thought out extra body floatation. It would also:

Be soft, comfortable and insulating to some degree.

Have fall arrest rated thigh straps.

Pockets for lifesaving gear.

A lifting strop running up to the shoulder for rescue via halyard.

Easy to put on and adjust.

Dry quickly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWZIom6ThzQ

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This brings up a completely different question --

Are our life jackets appropriately designed?

Like many cruisers, I'm a good swimmer and love to be in the water, and feel fundamentally comfortable in the water. I jumped in the water once with one of my inflatable life jackets, just to experience what it would be like, and was shocked at how awkward it makes you in the water. It held my head nicely out of the water -- which I understand is key to survival in many cases -- but I couldn't possibly swim in it. I've been overboard twice in my life, and thank God I was not wearing a lifejacket either time. The first time I would surely have died if I had been in a lifejacket, as a strong current was running out to sea (the boat was at anchor), and only by swimming like hell was I able to get back to the mother ship. No one was on deck. The second time I also saved myself by swimming.

Is the design of these jackets really optimum?

What you say is heresy! Heresy, I say! And I feel the same way.

Ever watch a video of someone trying to reboard with an inflatable? Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPmNo-jo4tg

They did a good job of maneuvering the boat. No problem there. But the man in the water and the man over side trying to help are both ludicrously handicapped by the gear. The harness and PFD on the helper are particularly inappropriate; he should have been wearing a drysuit, non-inflatable PFD, and a proper body harness or seat harness with chest harness. It's Three Stooges time and they arn't trying to be funny.

No question, the gear is not designed to work, it's designed to meet specific standards.