A cautionary tale

[Delancey]

I know that proper passage planning isn't as sexy a subject as crushed testicles but man, where is MarkJ when you need him?

Three days out from Sydney NS is the Grand Banks. That is way far north for late season. And they were headed to the Azores? That's far north for the right season. You're in the Labrador current, of course the water is cold and hypothermia is a concern. The Gulf Stream is probably four hundred miles south.

I think Jimmy Cornell suggests something like getting to 40 or 42N and then heading due east, south of the latitude of New York. Unexpected lows can whip off the continent or develop spontaneously off shore in the North Atlantic and typically the farther north you are the worse it can get.

Sure people safely make late season passages. A lot of people also get the crap beat out of them too! Some die. Add these people to the list.

I know macho is important here on CF, but macho can be stupid and crotch straps won't fix stupid.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Delancey

"It happened in July 2017, as the couple struck out across the Atlantic Ocean, headed to the Azores, an archipelago off the coast of Portugal."

Three pages and all you guys can talk about is crotch straps or the failure of harness clips?

How about you change the subject to the real failure here, not making the right passage in the right season?

Seamanship isn't about what kind of gear you have, it's about not putting yourself in a situation where you need the gear in the first place.

May to June is the time to make this passage from west to east. July is late.

A Force 7 or Force 8 is absolutely normal weather on a W to E crossing in any season at that latitude. If it had been a Force 10, there might be something to discuss, but as it is, the timing of the trip is completely irrelevant.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Don't take this the wrong way but my view and one I pass on to others who are with me is that if you go overboard your dead, period. So spend your time figuring out how not to go overboard.

I certainly agree that staying on board should be Jobs 1, 2 and 3.

But it is demonstrably not true that you are necessarily dead if you go over. This guy actually had her practically back on board, and would no doubt have succeeded if she had not had on that useless life jacket with no straps.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

.. . But the macho Darwin candidate will truck on...

So sailing downwind in a F8 rather than heaving to, makes you a "macho Darwin candidate"? Give me a break, Phil! Then you and I are "macho Darwin candidates" too, because I know for sure that you sail in such conditions, as I do. I'm too lazy to dig up your Biscay crossing posts, but I'm sure you won't deny it :beer:. That's run of the mill ocean sailing conditions for anyone who sails above subtropical latitudes.

That's actually good sailing weather if you're going downwind, because it's not quite enough wind to create really dangerous sea states, but enough wind so that you only need a bit of headsail out to make hull speed. With the center of effort right out at the bow, the boat is extremely stable and a decent pilot can usually steer just fine. I would not be heaving to unless the gear failed or something broke. I would be making miles to squirt out of the way before the next low rolls through. Newfoundland to the Azores is only 1500 miles -- maybe 8 or 9 days of sailing, short enough that the big picture weather window should be fine.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I’ve never even worn a drysuit, but it’s certainly something I’m thinking about. My concern would be how functional they are to live in all the time. I suspect not very. So then they become something you only put on when you think you need to, which can be problematic. I dunno...

After 25 years of diving mainly from small boats where you are out all day I am quite happy wearing a drysuit for a full day. Thick neoprene suits made from crushed 4mm or greater keep me warm for most of the year in UK waters with thin thermal wear underneath. An increase in underwear would be sufficient for winter diving. In the heat of the summer you can feel the sweat running down inside but with water between 5 - 15'c the suit is keeping you alive even on long dives with decompression stops.

The alternative is a membrane suit which is much thinner and are now available in breathable dinghy or sailing suits. In cold conditions they need substantial thermal clothes underneath and we would wear a special undersuit during cold weather. In warmer weather I have dived in jeans under a membrane suit. The main advantage is they are more baggy and lighter with thin cuff and neck seals very comfortable for all day wear and probably more acceptable for a woman.

Some hard learnt lessons with drysuits are not to run around when you put it on. If you sweat through hard work when its cold then the suit will fill with condensation and you will seriously compromise the thermal qualities of the suit and underwear, just when you need it the most. The other thing to avoid is wearing cotton underneath a drysuit for the same reason. Cotton has no insulation qualities when damp and given that wool or any of the man made equivalent fibres are so much better there is no excuse or need for cotton.

If I was doing an offshore trip today I would take my drysuit with me. If I didn't own one I would buy one. There has been more than one incident in UK waters (5-15'c) of divers surviving in the water overnight due to their drysuits.

[thinwater]

The "cautionary tale" relates a difficult situation that we don't want to face. I suspect most couples boats are ill-equipped to turn around and go recover the significant other. I accept that fact on my boat and have always sailed as though single handed.

They were just getting organized in the cockpit when the wave hit. We can talk about short tethers, but it simply surprised them. That could happen to the most diligent sailor, at a moment he thought he was safe. My understanding is that it was the first such wave and was a complete surprise. The only lesson there is diligence.

There is the matter of crotch straps. Though I have been testing some alternatives and will publish the results, I'm satisfied with what I see on the market. But there is also solid evidence that says if she had been wearing anything it would have ended differently.

There is the fit issue. I bet she had on heavy foul weather gear and the fit was comically, as it turns out tragically, loose. In summer clothes I'm pretty sure I can't slip out of a chest harness. I've done considerable hang time in testing. But I have shoulders. I know if I wear some clothing layers I can relax my shoulders and slide out. The bottom line is some manner of crotch strap is vital, but we don't like them for continuous wear in more moderate weather and the designs seem to have room for improvement.

If she had not fallen out, how would you get her on board? I've always kept a recovery line with a carabiner on it in the cockpit. My first reflex would not have been to go to her, for I KNOW I would fail. My first reflex would have been to grab the line and clip her harness. Perhaps 35 years of rock climbing built that reflex. You then throw the line over something high (boom?), down to a turning block, and onto a winch. This needs to be something you have tested, with the smaller person doing the grinding. I have.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So sailing downwind in a F8 rather than heaving to, makes you a "macho Darwin candidate"? Give me a break, Phil! Then you and I are "macho Darwin candidates" too, because I know for sure that you sail in such conditions, as I do. I'm too lazy to dig up your Biscay crossing posts, but I'm sure you won't deny it :beer:. That's run of the mill ocean sailing conditions for anyone who sails above subtropical latitudes.

That's actually good sailing weather if you're going downwind, because it's not quite enough wind to create really dangerous sea states, but enough wind so that you only need a bit of headsail out to make hull speed. With the center of effort right out at the bow, the boat is extremely stable and a decent pilot can usually steer just fine. I would not be heaving to unless the gear failed or something broke. I would be making miles to squirt out of the way before the next low rolls through. Newfoundland to the Azores is only 1500 miles -- maybe 8 or 9 days of sailing, short enough that the big picture weather window should be fine.

Downwind on 50% jib yes I've done it.. but thats a rare thing W to E.. more often it NW to N to NE.. and in winter its the same further S..
Have had a bulkhead punched out and another twisted N of Bermuda.. and the predominant swell is NNW so as a front passes the cross seas can get nasty..
Further East near the Azores a N'ly can build up big beam sea's with breaking crests.. only places I've been laid below watching green water wash over the saloon hatch.. mind I was lying ahull at the time..
But realistically even downwind around F8 on a delivery or otherwise I will heave to.. the smaller the boat the lower the number.. 21ft and a long way to go its been a F6 if the skies say its building.
Remember.. I sail either solo or with 1 crew most times so comfort and freshness are a priorty over speed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Downwind on 50% jib yes I've done it.. but thats a rare thing W to E.. more often it NW to N to NE.. and in winter its the same further S..
Have had a bulkhead punched out and another twisted N of Bermuda.. and the predominant swell is NNW so as a front passes the cross seas can get nasty..
Further East near the Azores a N'ly can build up big beam sea's with breaking crests.. only places I've been laid below watching green water wash over the saloon hatch.. mind I was lying ahull at the time..
But realistically even downwind around F8 on a delivery or otherwise I will heave to.. the smaller the boat the lower the number.. 21ft and a long way to go its been a F6 if the skies say its building.
Remember.. I sail either solo or with 1 crew most times so comfort and freshness are a priorty over speed.

OK, fair enough, but I think you know what I mean and I'm guessing you don't fundamentally disagree.

Pete7 and I crossed the Channel from C-bourg on my boat in an F8, and we had fun, didn't we Pete? It wasn't even downwind -- beamish reach with wind slightly behind the beam, most of the way, IIRC. The pilot steered competently the whole way. Just avoid tidal races, lee shores, and shallow water, reef appropriately, and handle your sails well, and it's no big deal. Sailing from Newfoundland to Europe in any season you're going to get a F8 most times, from time to time.

Single handed and/or in a smaller boat, certainly, heaving-to might be a good tactic, but an experienced couple sailing a decent sized boat might very reasonably choose to sail on, thus reducing the risk that they will be caught by another system.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, fair enough, but I think you know what I mean and I'm guessing you don't fundamentally disagree.

Pete7 and I crossed the Channel from C-bourg on my boat in an F8, and we had fun, didn't we Pete? It wasn't even downwind -- beamish reach with wind slightly behind the beam, most of the way, IIRC. The pilot steered competently the whole way.

Yes a good crossing in lumpy conditions caused by an ebbing tide and a SW blowing up the channel. What would have been better would be offshore, yes bigger waves but a longer frequency between the wave tops. Once folk get over the fright of a scary big wave coming up from behind at 3 times the boat speed it can be good sailing.

Pete

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Yes a good crossing in lumpy conditions caused by an ebbing tide and a SW blowing up the channel. What would have been better would be offshore, yes bigger waves but a longer frequency between the wave tops. Once folk get over the fright of a scary big wave coming up from behind at 3 times the boat speed it can be good sailing.

Pete

Why, Pete, I had that problem in our Yankee 30 crossing to Hawaii with a tropical storm (Gil) headed our way! How I dealt with it was to quit looking at them. It was quite obvious they were not a problem to the boat, but the seas were taller than my house ashore! And it was my first time.

Ann

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Why, Pete, I had that problem in our Yankee 30 crossing to Hawaii with a tropical storm (Gil) headed our way! How I dealt with it was to quit looking at them. It was quite obvious they were not a problem to the boat, but the seas were taller than my house ashore! And it was my first time.

Ann

Ha ha, so you're a "macho Darwin candidate", too, Ann? Welcome to the club!

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Ha ha, so you're a "macho Darwin candidate", too, Ann? Welcome to the club!

Nah, not macho at all, I'm afraid. Part of what I learned is about managing my fear, and for me that means being "proactive." All part of life, I guess.

Ann

[boatman61]

What you seem to forget is your on a 54ft boat with 2 to 3 other crew and you own it and know it well.. maybe you can cover 1500nm in 8 to 9 days..
Try that in a 30ftr where you will be averaging 100nm a day.. so thats at least 15 days.. if you have perfect conditions.. if not you play safe and don't stress the boat that you've known for a week or less.. throw in a 3 day gale or 5 days of calms and your up to 18 to 20 days.
I do the SXM to Azores crossing mainly.. 17 days in a 62ftr.. but could have been less but for unusual E'lies but usually its between 20 to 25 days..
If life were that simple so many boats would not go down doing this crossing.. including 70ftrs with 7 man crews.

[Argyle38]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Because, at the risk of belaboring the point -- LIFE JACKETS ARE USELESS WITHOUT CROTCH OR LEG STRAPS.

Sorry, I can't disagree with this enough and I think it sends the wrong message.

Some flotation is always better than no flotation. That's why all of the MOB instructions say to heave cushions and any flotation items at the MOB as the first step.

[OrinocoFlo]

Originally Posted by Argyle38

Sorry, I can't disagree with this enough and I think it sends the wrong message.

Some flotation is always better than no flotation. That's why all of the MOB instructions say to heave cushions and any flotation items at the MOB as the first step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDx1C6d6JFU