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Old 18-06-2013, 06:59   #31
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Re: When Does an Irresponsible Skipper's Actions Become Criminal?

you can't legislate morality nor common sense.

If you don't like creating law, then you must create a culture of decency.

Good luck with that, especially in the US
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Old 18-06-2013, 07:01   #32
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pirate Re: When does a irresponsible skippers actions become criminal?

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Yep. In the U.S. at least. Don't know about other countries, but the example that I offered of the conviction of Joe Hazelwood was a charge of "negligent discharge" and most definitely was a criminal conviction, not just a tort case.
And when is one considered negligent...
before or after the slaughter
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Old 18-06-2013, 07:10   #33
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Re: When Does an Irresponsible Skipper's Actions Become Criminal?

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With regard to the Bounty, it was a rational, but ultimately wrong decision to get underway. The captain had a boat that he was very familiar with, a better crew than normal, and weather that he had survived with that boat in much worse condition. Given that, I don't think that he was a moron on the lines of a drunk. He made a mistake in judgement and paid the ultimate price. No need to make the man a scapegoat as well.
I think you should read the Coast Guard review of the incident. You are wrong on a number of points. For one thing, the crew was not "better than normal." In fact, other than the captain and the first mate, they were all extremely inexperienced. Their "engineer" had an appalling lack of knowledge or experience with engines, for example. In addition, while the ship had skirted hurricanes in the past, in this case the captain basically sailed straight into one of the worst and largest hurricanes in many years. So they had not survived "much worse conditions."

The bottom line is that this happened because the captain made a number of really bad decisions. I don't think anyone is trying to make him a scapegoat. We are just trying to understand what happened, and why, so that it can be avoided in the future. Unfortunately, as someone else pointed out, you cannot legislate common sense, and in the case of the HMS Bounty it appears that the captain, for some reason, completely abandoned common sense.
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Old 18-06-2013, 07:23   #34
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Re: When Does a Irresponsible Skipper's Actions Become Criminal?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
(...)

You can't have experts but no beginners, or in 20 years there will be almost no one sailing.

I think it's highly intolerant to be annoyed that there are beginners in the world.

(...)
+1!

Where I started up, we went sailing first and then we sailed some more. We got our big (hahaha - full 26'5'' of it) boat only when I was some 30 years down the sailing track. And then we sailed some more again.

Too bad today, in some rich countries, people can just 'walk into a shop' and buy a boat, and off they go. Bow thrusters and fenders and insurance. The new generation ;-).

So maybe it is not about competence but rather about affluence.

b.
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Old 18-06-2013, 08:11   #35
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Re: When Does a Irresponsible Skipper's Actions Become Criminal?

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The good news is you are not a law maker. That would be that for freedom (if any still left).

The bad news is (IMHO) you are right in your assessment of the number of ignorant sailors around. There are many.

And why does it happen?

Well, one reason is that people start very late and they sail very little. They turn 40 this year and they feel something is missing in their otherwise fully loaded reality and so they go to a boat show, or to the yachtworld, and oooooops - we end up with another "sailor".

People simply do not sail enough, and they do not build the skills required for safe boating.

Reading a grammar book is not the way to learn to speak a language. Buying a Ferrari is not the way to become a good driver.

Some people "think" they can buy safety in a chandlery store - a plotter, an SSB with a Pactor, a bowthruster and ASA courses. But this is not how one becomes a good sailor. Most of us walk pretty well, eh? Well, we started early and we've been practicing ever since ...

My 2 eurocents' of popcorn.

b.
Exactly...just try to get an on coming vessel to pass port to port...very basic knowledge is often absent or belligerently disregarded.
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Old 18-06-2013, 12:08   #36
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Isn't the reason you like to get out on the boat the freedom it offers? Why consider adding regulation or trying to get a consensus on what should or shouldn't be allowed. Drive defensively and avoid the crowds. It's the downside of tolerance.
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Old 19-06-2013, 04:10   #37
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Re: When Does an Irresponsible Skipper's Actions Become Criminal?

Totally agree, more regulation seems to be the fix for everything instead of personal responsibilty. I left the US after serving in the Navy and never looked back. I will enjoy my occasional beverage in the cockpit, avoid collision, not worry if I have enough PFDs in the dink and lead a less regulated freer life. Of course outside of the US you do not have the lawyers waiting to decide if you act responsibly.
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Old 19-06-2013, 04:34   #38
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Re: When Does an Irresponsible Skipper's Actions Become Criminal?

heres how it works around here - a couple of years ago a 70ish year old bloke who'd been living on his boat for years and wrote for the local boaties magazine and who was in the habit of standing up in his dinghy when he motored ashore, stood up once too often and went over the side - they passed a law making all the rest of us have to wear lifejackets any time we were in a boat less then 4 meters and closer then 400 meters to shore - go figure - and ive been pulled up in my bloody dinghy since then, in chest deep water, and i had to be nice to the uniformed idiots 'cos i knew they could ping me for not wearing a lifebelt...so careful what you wish for
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Old 19-06-2013, 04:56   #39
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pirate Re: When Does an Irresponsible Skipper's Actions Become Criminal?

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Originally Posted by charliehows View Post
heres how it works around here - a couple of years ago a 70ish year old bloke who'd been living on his boat for years and wrote for the local boaties magazine and who was in the habit of standing up in his dinghy when he motored ashore, stood up once too often and went over the side - they passed a law making all the rest of us have to wear lifejackets any time we were in a boat less then 4 meters and closer then 400 meters to shore - go figure - and ive been pulled up in my bloody dinghy since then, in chest deep water, and i had to be nice to the uniformed idiots 'cos i knew they could ping me for not wearing a lifebelt...so careful what you wish for
Obviously just a State Law...
I'm one of those irresponsible, reckless, hard drinking guys who stand up in their dinghy, don't wear a life jacket and have a drink at sea... and I was hammering around Darwin like that in my dinghy.. no problems... no nannies..
Also, anyone in CF who reads this and decides I'm unsafe to sail with good for you... I really don't give a ****... you go your way and I'll go mine.
But it always makes me laugh when some 'Yachtie' with a few miles under their keel and a brand new YM/captains ticket is suddenly an expert.
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