When Does an Irresponsible Skipper's Actions Become Criminal?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

The good news is you are not a law maker. That would be that for freedom (if any still left).

The bad news is (IMHO) you are right in your assessment of the number of ignorant sailors around. There are many.

And why does it happen?

Well, one reason is that people start very late and they sail very little. They turn 40 this year and they feel something is missing in their otherwise fully loaded reality and so they go to a boat show, or to the yachtworld, and oooooops - we end up with another "sailor".

People simply do not sail enough, and they do not build the skills required for safe boating.

Reading a grammar book is not the way to learn to speak a language. Buying a Ferrari is not the way to become a good driver.

Some people "think" they can buy safety in a chandlery store - a plotter, an SSB with a Pactor, a bowthruster and ASA courses. But this is not how one becomes a good sailor. Most of us walk pretty well, eh? Well, we started early and we've been practicing ever since ...

My 2 eurocents' of popcorn.

b.

Where do the beginners go? I know a lot of "experienced" sailors who don't know some things they should know. I bought a smaller boat first, sailed a lot in protected waters before I branched out, sailed every darned chance I got, sailed the boat by myself and with others, crewed with others, took extra classes, read books (not a complete waste of time unless you don't get on the water afterwards and explore what you've read) ...

But I was still a beginner. You can't have experts but no beginners, or in 20 years there will be almost no one sailing.

I think it's highly intolerant to be annoyed that there are beginners in the world.

What I can't stand are people who refuse to learn. I know someone who simply can't tack a boat -- as in, she has no clue where the wind is even coming from -- after six years. And she sails a lot.

She sails a lot, but she doesn't learn, and won't learn. I made a date with her to teach her to tack (and gybe -- someone convinced her she should never gybe, then I did it when I took the helm from her to keep from hitting a piling and she was a amazed that it could be done safely) ... well it probably couldn't be done safely *by her.*

I went out with her to see what the problem was, and it couldn't have been worse. She didn't even have wind awareness.

I wrote out fourteen steps for that particular boat starting with noticing where the wind was coming from ...

she broke the date.

I made another. She broke the date.

Someone who has been sailing for over 60 years made a date with her to teach her to tack.

She broke the date.

At some point it's just absurd. She has a college degree. She could learn how to tack if she wants to, but she sails on a broad reach (NOT rocket science), jerks all over the place, sometimes running aground because she can't turn the boat in time, and then takes off on a broad reach again ... and thinks she knows how to sail.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Negligence is a tort.. a civil court case. A crimminal court case is (in most countires) a breach of a codified criminal law.

Theres a USA lawyer (or ten) on this forum so one may tell you about the USA.

Actually, negligence can also be a criminal act, such as "negligent manslaughter."

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by markpierce

...
Boats competently transiting Petaluma River, after holding position for 40 minutes for the D Street bridge (behind the camera) to open:

From front to back: boat from which photo was taken, shifted in and out of gear; first boat in photo (Coot), was tied to the berthed tug; second boat, same as the first; last boat, was anchored.

[Dulcesuenos]

Sailing drunk was only criminal if you were drunk to see straight or took another mans rum/ grog ration.
Boy some traditions die hard....

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Sailing drunk was only criminal if you were drunk to see straight or took another mans rum/ grog ration.
Boy some traditions die hard....

When I was a child in Fort Lauderdale it was legal to drive with an open beer *in your hand* as long as you weren't "drunk." Drunk driving wasn't recognized as a serious societal problem them, and I often heard adults laughing about it.

it took a while for our views to evolve. I think we need to go there on the water as well.

[Dreaming Yachtsman]

The trivial answer is obviously when the skipper's irresponsible actions result in a crime, such as manslaughter, being committed.

I'm guessing that the OP was looking for discussions, however, so I'll leave this thread now.

[bazzer]

I as the OP am not suggesting more regulation, but more common sense which might make our crowded waters more enjoyable and less stressful.
Am at home right now, thank god I'm off to the boat for several weeks tomorrow, my big issue is getting out of the damn harbor safely. What with the large party boats and the Hornblower fleet( who think they own the harbor) sometimes it can be a nightmare. But still totally enjoy sailing wether it be a day sail or a open ocean cruise.
Love It!
Bazzer

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by bazzer

.......
But that is not the main question that I'm asking, it's as the title suggests, is it criminal for a irresponsible and ill prepared skipper to put to sea.

Well it shouldn't be....
It should be a criminal offence if his/her actions causes a breach of the criminal code.

But simply to put to sea, well consider the following:
Is it criminal for a irresponsible and ill prepared walker to go for a walk in the park or cyclist to go for a ride on the road or .....

Around here we have a spate of hang glider accidents, should it be banned.... I say no BTW, I don't participate in this activity.

Originally Posted by bazzer

I as the OP am not suggesting more regulation, but more common sense iwhich might make our crowded waters more enjoyable and less stressful....

Now more common sense would be nice

Originally Posted by bazzer

Am at home right now, thank god I'm off to the boat for several weeks tomorrow, my big issue is getting out of the damn harbor safely. What with the large party boats and the Hornblower fleet( who think they own the harbor) sometimes it can be a nightmare. But still totally enjoy sailing wether it be a day sail or a open ocean cruise.
Love It!
Bazzer

Enjoy your sail

[bobconnie]

Bazzer, leave late at night ! always works for us ! I hate all the sunday sailors at much as anyone, but I would rather leave when they are sound asleep from there after sailing toddys LOL

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by bobconnie

Bazzer, leave late at night ! always works for us ! I hate all the sunday sailors at much as anyone, but I would rather leave when they are sound asleep from there after sailing toddys LOL

It's the people on skidoos with 5 minutes of instruction who scare me ...

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Well, one reason is that people start very late and they sail very little. They turn 40 this year and they feel something is missing in their otherwise fully loaded reality and so they go to a boat show, or to the yachtworld, and oooooops - we end up with another "sailor".

Talk about a broad brush. Just because you start at 40 doesn't mean that you have to be a m0ron. There are plenty of people out there that tackle the process of learning to sail in a responsible and safe manner.

I also think this has absolutely nothing to do with the situation of the HMS Bounty.

It seems to me that this thread is trying to capture all irresponsible things that happen on the water, which is rather a waste of time.


Onno

[bobconnie]

Ahh, never saw all that many skidoos out at 10 or 11 o clock at night ! not to many of them have running lights ! But I think leaveing at night saves a bunch of trouble, at least for us ! And I always look forward to the first sunrise anyway ! Just a thought

[Pyrate]

With regard to the Bounty, it was a rational, but ultimately wrong decision to get underway. The captain had a boat that he was very familiar with, a better crew than normal, and weather that he had survived with that boat in much worse condition. Given that, I don't think that he was a moron on the lines of a drunk. He made a mistake in judgement and paid the ultimate price. No need to make the man a scapegoat as well.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Actually, negligence can also be a criminal act, such as "negligent manslaughter."

Yep. In the U.S. at least. Don't know about other countries, but the example that I offered of the conviction of Joe Hazelwood was a charge of "negligent discharge" and most definitely was a criminal conviction, not just a tort case.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

When I was a child in Fort Lauderdale it was legal to drive with an open beer *in your hand* as long as you weren't "drunk."

That was legal in Florida at least as recently as the mid 80s. Not certain when the law was changed (as I never did it anyway), but do remember the ABC stores with a drive-through window where you could buy a single can of beer and they would open it for you.