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Old 24-09-2014, 05:51   #271
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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Proper preparedness concerns itself with what is probable, not what is possible.
Risk = Probability x Consequences
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Old 24-09-2014, 11:52   #272
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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Stepping back a little...

I am arguing across three theads (GPS, anchor alarms, rafts/epirbs) that one should develop seamanship skills, knowledge, judgement and sensitivity, and use that seamanship understanding to temper the use of various tools and gadgets, and most definitely not become over reliant or over dependent on these gadgets.

All of this "modern" equipment should be used within a background and context of seamanship knowledge and understanding. I am surprised at the high level of resistance there is to this (I believe very sensible) proposition.

And back specifically to this thread, yes, if you are using GPS/plotters without knowing basic navigational practice (which was the ops point/question) then I personally think you are over reliant/dependent on it.

As an aside . . . The public nautical charts in chile are randomly (eg it is different sheet to sheet) in error, by a mile or two. (I was told, but it could just be a talk, that this is to hinder an argentine invasion). But if you get down there and are planning on depending on "point and click" plotter navigation, then you are going to be a bit puzzled.
I absolutely agree with you, one should always have backups.

However the justifications for such learning is not based on the fact that the whole world will come to an end and GNSS systems will rain down from the sky.
Thats all Im trying to say. Those that argue that GPS isn't reliable at a systems level and hence you need to learn something else are just scaremongering .

Gadgets and gizmos are fine once you understand the limitations. Then its up to individuals to assess what risks they are comfortable with and live by that. If thats only carrying GPS , or not carrying a liferaft etc. Then thats their call.

alternative navigation to GPS can involve very many methods, often many are common sense. you still don't require celestial etc to find your way to a land mass. ( then you can always call up help on the radio etc!).

Its a tribute to the safeness of the sport that in fact we have few issues

I think its incorrect to mix up the two subjects, learning alternative navigations techniques is a valuable way to mitigate local failures, its not justified by arguing total systems failure ( or the US military just might provoke WWIII trying to knock out other GNSS etc )

dave
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Old 24-09-2014, 12:03   #273
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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I'm not surprised. The view that one should strive for self reliance is sort of anti-society. For most people the thought that society could fail to function somehow is like thinking the sun won't rise tomorrow.

I naively started a thread asking what people were packing these days in their ditch bags and learned that most would rather trust an acronym than prepare for the worst after being kindly informed that "the days of Steven Callahan are long over"This thinking doesn't make sense to me and it seems sort of self-centered.
Most societies require a balance between self reliance and the common good. Neither extreme facilitates harmony.
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what people were packing these days in their ditch bags and learned that most would rather trust an acronym than prepare for the worst
Since I made that quote , I was arguing that distrusting GPS because the whole GNSS system was going to fall out of the sky is quite simply ridiculous. There are many reasons why one should have backup plans, expecting the GNSS to fail isn't one of them

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"the days of Steven Callahan are long over"
Given the advent of GMDSS ( you are aware for this are you not). The expectation ( and practice) is that on average a casualty will wait at most approx 4 days for rescue, outside of the general polar regions. This is based on the assumption that the minimal GMDSS mandated communications equipment is carried. Rebel Heart is a classic example

Therefore, taken as a whole, the days when one drifted for many moons are unlikely to be commonplace. Steve Callaghan actually had a ELT, but there was no polar sats at that time.

Today, not carrying appropriate equipment is "selfish", because in your absence, rescue agencies will expend considerable effort trying to locate you , effort that you could mitigate by carrying the gear.

The romantic "wild west" notion of self -reliance was only ever that - romantic. If you need help, ask for it and have the means to do so, your loved ones will thank you.

dave
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Old 25-09-2014, 19:39   #274
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

How were the oceans navigated before GPS?

Is it no longer possible to use that technology?


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Old 25-09-2014, 20:22   #275
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

Apparently not.

However I have watched 11 year old kids do it. And then I read here that it is not worth learning.

Back to the idiot box and the x-box and the reliance on GPS! Haha!!
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Old 25-09-2014, 22:09   #276
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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+1^10

And that is one of the reasons that every certifying agency with which I am associated teaches traditional paper navigation before electronic navigation.
+1^10 still equals +1 right?
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Old 25-09-2014, 22:18   #277
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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+1^10 still equals +1 right?
Writing maths by computer keyboard is not my strong point but I thought the expression "+1^10" means "one to the power of ten"; if so, then +1^10 does not equal 1, right?
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Old 25-09-2014, 22:25   #278
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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Writing maths by computer keyboard is not my strong point but I thought the expression "+1^10" means "one to the power of ten"; if so, then +1^10 does not equal 1, right?
I know the math. I was waiting for Jackdale's response to see if he realized that he was still just saying "+1", or really "+1!".
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Old 25-09-2014, 23:30   #279
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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Writing maths by computer keyboard is not my strong point but I thought the expression "+1^10" means "one to the power of ten"; if so, then +1^10 does not equal 1, right?
Wrong. 1 ^ 10 = 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
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Old 26-09-2014, 00:55   #280
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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Wrong. 1 ^ 10 = 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 1


I'm so easily confused these days and somehow was thinking 10^1


and oh
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Old 26-09-2014, 03:22   #281
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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How were the oceans navigated before GPS?

Is it no longer possible to use that technology?


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of course, should you desire, you can navigate using any techniques your competent in.

The rest of the mortal world will of course use GNSS I'm afraid


dave
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Old 26-09-2014, 07:37   #282
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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I know the math. I was waiting for Jackdale's response to see if he realized that he was still just saying "+1", or really "+1!".
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Old 26-09-2014, 08:01   #283
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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I know the math. I was waiting for Jackdale's response to see if he realized that he was still just saying "+1", or really "+1!".
Doh! I missed the factorial there. He was probably saying "+0!"
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Old 26-09-2014, 08:33   #284
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

You guys must be really bored if all you can talk about is math written by a keyboard....
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Old 26-09-2014, 09:17   #285
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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Originally Posted by Tango_51 View Post
How were the oceans navigated before GPS?

Is it no longer possible to use that technology?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
If you want to ground all air traffic, stop all commercial shipping, and go back to the days of long ago, then yes you can shut off GPS.

The US military uses a second signal from our satellites for their operations.

btw Russia, China, and India have their own GPS systems and the EU is thinking of getting their own.

Let's all try for some more conspiracy theory's!
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