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Old 22-09-2014, 13:58   #256
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

The newest GPS satellites being launched are much more hardened against solar flares. I read an article where they stated they believed them to be pretty much immune to even large ones.

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Old 22-09-2014, 14:07   #257
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

A significant user of GPS technology is geomatics. I have a couple of friends and clients who are geomatic engineers. One works in the pipeline industry in which they use DGPS for positioning pipelines. Another worked on the Bow building in Calgary where they positioned the steel girders using DGPS.

There is an interchange being constructed nearby. I see the GPS receivers as I drive by.

A lot of industries would come to a crashing halt with a loss of GPS.
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Old 22-09-2014, 14:13   #258
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The newest GPS satellites being launched are much more hardened against solar flares. I read an article where they stated they believed them to be pretty much immune to even large ones.

Mark

Yeah, I'd like to think the people in charge of things are not stupid, and if it's possible to hardnen these things I hope they are.
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Old 22-09-2014, 16:56   #259
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

Well it's clear that we as a community have to put up our own network of satellites.

I'll take the lead but I need your help...
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Old 22-09-2014, 17:21   #260
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You really are "angels on the head of a pin" merchant, Evans.

To decry reliance on a technology based on the remote possibility of total system failure is quite frankly nonsense, and would in effect render most technology today unusable by the same measure.
The op's questions was:

"How many people here even know how to get simple 3 point fix? I see so many computer geeks here talking about their Ipads and Iphones and crap."

First, It does not take the whole GPS system to go down, for a particular boat to lose their gps and then 'need' to know how to navigate. On Silk we had a near lightening strike while crossing the doldrums which knocked out our gps antenna. I always presumed EMP but don't know, it was just fried.

Lots of boats lose their electrical systems at sea and we have met we met two boats who's multiple plotter/gps's just simply died.

In some of these cases spare handheld gps's with do the trick, but I imagine in some they will not (massive salt water or massive lightening, or simply forgot to have fresh batteries for them).

Second, We have not had Sat constellations up in the sky for very long. I am not as absolutely sure as you seem to be that nothing could degrade them all at once. My industrial experiences informed me that we typically over look the real potential for 'black swans' - either massive human f&^k-ups or major natural events.

People did say things similar to what you are saying about the financial system, prior to 2008. But in fact it seems collapse about every 100 years. Fukushima was 'designed' to withstand 'couple hundred year' events, but then . . .

And despite what you are implying I know very well, first hand, that the US military IS prepared to take the 'civilian' system down area wide (where an unlucky cruiser might get caught) and to degrade the system world wide.

It is a fact that 'learning' navigation is relatively easy and also quite useful even when you are using GPS, so your comment about it "would in effect render most technology today unusable by the same measure" is complete nonsense. Some technology is difficult to back up with simple skills/learning, but this one is not.
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Old 23-09-2014, 02:24   #261
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

All reactions indicate that many show an interest in this subject. For further reading see next link (mainly under 'Vulnerability assessments' and 'US Resilience Policy and Desired Architecture'): Resilient Navigation and Timing Foundation .

Present situation with regard to eLoran in the US - as stated in the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Act of 2014 (see GPS.gov: Termination of LORAN-C) - is as follows:
Section 221 of the House bill bars the dismantling or disposal of LORAN infrastructure for one year unless the DHS Secretary provides a determination that it is not required to provide a backup to GPS. The provision also authorizes agreements with other public or private entities to develop eLORAN.
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Old 23-09-2014, 02:55   #262
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

Maybe some of you guys should have your captain follow you in a second boat, to cover any problems with the first. Wow, if the satellite are atacked or nocked out somehow, I want to be in the middle of nowhere and not know how to get home. Whew that was a close call.

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Old 23-09-2014, 07:28   #263
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

Stepping back a little...

I am arguing across three theads (GPS, anchor alarms, rafts/epirbs) that one should develop seamanship skills, knowledge, judgement and sensitivity, and use that seamanship understanding to temper the use of various tools and gadgets, and most definitely not become over reliant or over dependent on these gadgets.

All of this "modern" equipment should be used within a background and context of seamanship knowledge and understanding. I am surprised at the high level of resistance there is to this (I believe very sensible) proposition.

And back specifically to this thread, yes, if you are using GPS/plotters without knowing basic navigational practice (which was the ops point/question) then I personally think you are over reliant/dependent on it.

As an aside . . . The public nautical charts in chile are randomly (eg it is different sheet to sheet) in error, by a mile or two. (I was told, but it could just be a talk, that this is to hinder an argentine invasion). But if you get down there and are planning on depending on "point and click" plotter navigation, then you are going to be a bit puzzled.
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Old 23-09-2014, 08:26   #264
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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I am arguing across three theads (GPS, anchor alarms, rafts/epirbs) that one should develop seamanship skills, knowledge, judgement and sensitivity, and use that seamanship understanding to temper the use of various tools and gadgets, and most definitely not become over reliant or over dependent on these gadgets.
+1^10

And that is one of the reasons that every certifying agency with which I am associated teaches traditional paper navigation before electronic navigation.
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Old 23-09-2014, 08:30   #265
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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As an aside . . . The public nautical charts in chile are randomly (eg it is different sheet to sheet) in error, by a mile or two. (I was told, but it could just be a talk, that this is to hinder an argentine invasion). But if you get down there and are planning on depending on "point and click" plotter navigation, then you are going to be a bit puzzled.
The irony is that traditional paper coastal navigation does not depend the accuracy of the lat and long. A two / three bearing or running fix will put in a spot that gives you a sense of nearby hazards.
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Old 23-09-2014, 08:58   #266
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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All of this "modern" equipment should be used within a background and context of seamanship knowledge and understanding. I am surprised at the high level of resistance there is to this (I believe very sensible) proposition.
I'm not surprised. The view that one should strive for self reliance is sort of anti-society. For most people the thought that society could fail to function somehow is like thinking the sun won't rise tomorrow.

I naively started a thread asking what people were packing these days in their ditch bags and learned that most would rather trust an acronym than prepare for the worst after being kindly informed that "the days of Steven Callahan are long over"

This thinking doesn't make sense to me and it seems sort of self-centered.

No one seems to remember that during the Prefect Storm a HH-60 helicopter crashed and a pararescueman was lost as a result, along with six fisherman who failed to be "rescued" by an acronym.

To each his own.
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Old 23-09-2014, 11:10   #267
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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For most people the thought that society could fail to function somehow is like thinking the sun won't rise tomorrow.

Both are situations that are extremely unlikely, and impossible to prepare for. Proper preparedness concerns itself with what is probable, not what is possible.


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Old 23-09-2014, 11:34   #268
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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No one seems to remember that during the Prefect Storm a HH-60 helicopter crashed and a pararescueman was lost as a result, along with six fisherman who failed to be "rescued" by an acronym.
They also failed to be rescued by their ditch bag or other equipment. There will always be summary catastrophes and it really isn't valid to draw conclusions from them.

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Old 23-09-2014, 12:42   #269
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

A box of galvanized ring-shank nails greased up and wrapped in plastic and a hammer cost less than a paper chart. I can't imagine putting to sea without these three things and the knowledge how to use them so I guess that makes me a paper chart guy who likes hammers and nails.

My ditch bag has a handheld DSC VHF, a sat phone, and an EPIRB all individually wrapped in non-conductive grounding bags along with an assortment of typical survival gear. It also has two Nalgene flasks full of rum and whiskey and a pack of cigarettes. And I don't smoke!

From where I stand I see all kinds of failure in society. I am always surprised when people are so surprised when something bad happens. How many people on this forum are upside down on their mortgages? Does anybody think the current world health crisis in Africa is going to get better before it gets worse? Take your pick.

Personally, I work off the assumption that the more complex something is, the more likely it is to fail. That's what works for me, but for me keeping a DR is a fun thing I enjoy doing. Maybe for others it's hard work or taxing in some way. So it would seem.
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Old 23-09-2014, 13:58   #270
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Re: What will Happen to you when GPS goes Down

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The irony is that traditional paper coastal navigation does not depend the accuracy of the lat and long.
Exactly.

The charts in the Chilean channel country are invariably in error in longitude by a mile or two.... latitude is normally OK.

I am suprised that they were able to get that accuracy considering the weather down there and the fact that due to the narrowness of the channels you rarely have a sea horizon.

But as Evans says... rely on your GPS to enter an anchorage down there in the dark and you will come well and truly unstuck.
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